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GeForce 3, Doom III, oh my!
February 22nd 2001, 14:23 GMT by Morn This is all over the web, so it can't hurt if we mention it here as well. <a href="http://video.cnet.com:80/cnet_news/template/ramgen.cgi?cpcode=674&asset=http://cnetnews.download.akamai.com/674/t022101_2200hi.rm&start=2166&end=506966&xtn=.ram">This RealVideo movie</a> of Steve Jobs' MacWorld keynote contains, yes, (supposedly) real-time footage of id's Doom III (running on nVidia's new GeForce 3, also known as NV20). And boy oh boy, does it looks nice! You can find more info on <a href="http://www.shugashack.com">the Shack</a>, <a href="http://www.voodooextreme.com">VoodooExtreme</a>, <a href="http://www.bluesnews.com">Blue's news</a> and very likely every other gaming site on the planet. Also thanks to everyone who emailed/ICQ'd us about this. |
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Topic: GeForce 3, Doom III, oh my!
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Impressive stuff. I wonder how much of this uses the "pixel shader" capability of the GeForce 3, and how much is a really clever lightmap system? If its the former, then I wonder how good it looks on a Radeon or similar T&L card that doesn't have all of the proprietary Nvidia OpenGL extensions! (Unless iD switched to DirectX 8 without telling anyone, in which case you can use per-pixel and per-vertex shaders with Nvidia's scripting language on any card that cares to implement them) T&L is great, what would really make the GeForce 3 for me would be hardware accelerated per-pixel lighting, rather than vertex lighting. That would finally make T&L useable for games that rely on massively dynamic lightmaps (as opposed to just the "T" - transformation), and would make the Unreal Warfare terrain system look a LOT better, too. [That's assuming that the article I read saying that it uses T&L with vertex-lighting is true] |
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shit you guys call that impressive?!?! they have GOT to be kidding me. Joker. |
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re #22 The moving curved surfaces were dropped. Just was way too much a processor hit. So a lot of those early levels got gutted One day I'll get a real connection and be able to view the streaming version. meanwhile I'm off to hunt out this divx version |
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I will wait to pass opinion on any new product from id Software until I have it on my hardrive, and running. Also, Why did the boys at id NOT release the video to their fans and supporters before all the Mac technogoons? No offense, I used a Mac once. Id will push the envelope once again I'm sure, they always have in the past, but GAMEPLAY is where it's at, and they've been overlooking that area lately, IMHO. I am looking forward to Wolfenstein, and partly because a third party of fans are making the game and not id. I don't think id could have done the sequel justice. |
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I suspect Apple gives checks for such exclusives. Draws a lot of attention to them. Pity Microsoft just has more money and bought out Bungie rather than just getting something to show off "apple and openGL". |
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$500+ dollars for a video card is just plain insane. They are just games, not the cure for cancer. Also redgardless of the graphics, if the gameplay isn't good it won't matter after a few levels of playing. Look at the very lukewarm reception for Team Arena. People are less and less just buying up whatever iD software releases. Theres allot of good 3D tech around now(although the demo was very impressive). You have to give more than just fancy graphics to impress most people nowdays. If you don't believe then look at the most popular online action game now, Counter-Strike with mods like TFC also very popular, both using the HL engine which is almost 2 1/2 years old now. Gameplay is what counts in the end. |
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OK, here's the official place to comment. I just wanted to add further clarification to my comment last night about the price. I have not bought a new video card since the TNT2U was all the rage, so my time is comming to make a sufficient sacrafice to the video card gods. I recognize that, and even look forward to it. My problem with the price, is not that I feel that 600 bucks is so out of line that I could not be motivated to actually buy one, but it's the fact that I'm a Canadian. Anyone who's bothered to read my rantings around here will recognise this as a recurring theme for me, but only because it hurts so much. Adding in the excahnge rate, and the 15% sales tax, I would have to pay what will most likely be in the $1000.00-$1200.00+ dollar range to get this card into my house. Feel my pain. My friends in Aus can probably understand what the problem is here. But my god, that's worth more than an entire computer can be had for. On the topic of the video... that was awesome. On the topic of mac's. Who knows, I may have to augment my computer collection some day. OSX looks sweet. If there is ever an x86 version, I'm sold, no questions asked. |
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#56, I feel your pain. I'm in the same boat. Canadian, running a TNT2 and amazed by the video. The day I lay down the $1100+ for a GF3 will be bittersweet. Am I the only one wishing Romero were part of the Doom project? Could be nostalgia rearing its head, but an id reunion would definitely bring a smile to my face. -Kel looking forward to Doom3/GF3 |
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<i>Thinking...</i> |
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im canadian as well... just upgraded from a tnt2 ultra to a geforce 2 mx cost me about 150, including tax, at a puter store neat spadina and college in downtown toronto. completely worth the price, in my opinion... makes all the games i've played run noticably smoother. there's no point in getting the nv20 right when it comes out [in my opinion], because there will be few games that actually support it. that, and its price will be quite high. if you wait until some games come out that support the cards features, chances are the price will be substantially lower. thats why i bought the mx-- it'll give me decent performance in all games for a while, until i need to upgrade to a gf3 or above, probably in about a year or a year and a half... regards/john |
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bout time to convert those <i>old tags</i> into new ones morn. |
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Id making an incredible engine? No surprise. Its almost expected of them. Gameplay on the otherhand, is an entirely different matter. Impressive yes, but I'm not getting too excited over this. |
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Am I the only one wishing Romero were part of the Doom project? Could be nostalgia rearing its head, but an id reunion would definitely bring a smile to my face. I certainly share this notion. |
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Eh, I'll wait till I see real time volumetric lighting and fully volumetric shading before I shell out $700 on a video card ;) |
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Does this mean it be a lot easier for map makers to light levels? Instead of setting up a bunch of static lights etc. you just throw in real ones and watch em light the scene in real-time. I dunno if that will make lighting easer or harder. I imagine easier since you can see it in real-time. |
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Does this mean it be a lot easier for map makers to light levels? Instead of setting up a bunch of static lights etc. you just throw in real ones and watch em light the scene in real-time. I dunno if that will make lighting easer or harder. I imagine easier since you can see it in real-time. That would depend on the level editor/compile times which id haven't been that great about i the past (hey I edited tons of Quake-engine map ... I speak from experience). I heard they are coupling the level editor to the engine this time around, so hopefully they will come out with a nice level editor ... something that can show lighting in the viewports and such ... THAT would make level editing easier. |
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the engine is freaking awesome. Completely amazing. just think about what would happen if Paul Steed made some boobs for the engine. haha. |
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i showed the demo to a couple of normal people in art class (read=nongamers) and they really perked up, wanted to try it out, etc. sighs all around when they learned the game was still under construction and they had to shell over 600 clams. ^_^ but that, in itself, to get someone who knows nothing about games interested in them just by a small tech demo, is amazing. Who cares if the full version won't look exactly like the mac pimp edition video... this is a definate step forward for computer gfx in general, and that's a Good Thing (tm) i hope ^_^ /me dreams of long nights hiding in the shadows from imps and pinkies in that sweet, sexy engine... |
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The lighting is nice. Its in fact very nice. However there is nothing in these Doom 3 shots model and enviroment wise that doesn't look like it couldn't be done on a Dreamcast (Which I uses as a point of reference solely because of Shenmue), As whacky as this sounds, the demo only made me want an xbox more. *shrug* Demonicuss I too have an HP Pavilion. (8870 its an athlon 850) I do have an agp slot. However its useless (ei broken) and I have to use pci cards. I'm currently using a voodoo3 pci. If I have to upgrade I'll get a geforce 2 mx pci but I'm hoping I will not have to. |
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Uhh... an x-box wont have a ge-force 3 though. and all this stuff was demoed on the ge-force3 right? so who knows what it looks like on other cards |
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No #69 the Geforce 3 is the NV20. The two are basically the same design. Nvidia is calling the one for the Xbox the NV2A, but it will have all the same capabiltities. |
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That would depend on the level editor/compile times which id haven't been that great about i the past (hey I edited tons of Quake-engine map ... I speak from experience). I heard they are coupling the level editor to the engine this time around, so hopefully they will come out with a nice level editor ... something that can show lighting in the viewports and such ... THAT would make level editing easier. I know that's something Robert Duffy has wanted to do for some time. In fact the old Quake2 versions of QERadiant had a tool bar button to turn lighting effects on in the 3d view point (he was highered by id for Q3radiant before that ever got connected to any thing. |
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Am I the only one wishing Romero were part of the Doom project? Could be nostalgia rearing its head, but an id reunion would definitely bring a smile to my face. Not to be an ass or anything, but which parts of Daikatana make you think this would be a good thing? |
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That's not being an ass at all, Steve. Daikatana was an awful game and John Romero was the project leader. It doesn't inspire confidence in his abilities. But from what it sounds like, Romero was fairly hands-off in the actual coding of Daikatana, whereas on Doom and Quake, he got his hands dirty doing actual map design and miscellaneous programming stuff. In that regard, I could see people who enjoyed his design work in Doom/Quake hoping he could reproduce some of that in Doom 3. It's something that would never happen, of course, but it's fun to speculate. |
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#72, I totally concur with what Creole Ned (#73) said. Yeah, Daikatana wasn't the best game. Beaten horse. But that doesn't negate what he did with the Doom series and Quake1. Ever since Romero's departure, IMHO id hasn't made a good SP game. And since Romero was involved with the creation of Doom, I can't see his involvement being a bad thing. ..and again, for nostalgia's sake, Doom is partly Romero's baby. I think it'd be great to see an id reunion on the project. Never going to happen, but it's nice to dream. ;) |
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Not to be an ass or anything, but which parts of Daikatana make you think this would be a good thing? Well the ideas in Daikatana were pretty good. The sidekicks, the rpg system, the time travel story line and so on would have been great if they worked. This is why Romero needs iD. Someone who could make his ideas work. Now look at Quake 2 and 3. Devoid of personality and theme. Thats why Id needs Romero. |
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Am I the ONLY person in the world who thoroughly enjoyed Quake 1 & 2, both single and multiplayer, and enjoyed Q3A as well? I'm guessing that I am, with all the comments about "good engine as usual, but where's the gameplay?" I dunno, maybe it's because Quake 1 was my first real experience with modern PC gaming, and so I wasn't expecting much in terms of story, but I loved it in every way, and loved Q2 as well. Q3A I didn't play single player very much, because I have a cable modem and figured eh, what's the point, but I loved the multi. I always thought the Quake series, while in retrospect not on par with something like Half-Life, was still a lot of fun, and was both time and money well-spent. Also, I imagine Paul Steed is just banging his head against a desk right about now, weeping, and saying to himself "if only I hadn't been such an asshole...if only I hadn't made fun of Adrian Carmack's spindly girl arms..." -brennan |
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brennan- Well, there are at least 2 of us.... -Whisp |
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I've seen Halo up close plenty of times and believe me, the new Doom (stop calling it Doom 3! It's unnamed and almost certainly won't be called that!) blows it out of the proverbial water. When I first saw Halo (E3 '99) it was way above the competition and it still is incredible but it has nothing on what is in this Doom movie. Nothing. They've rewritten the graphics engine, but I don't expect it to look like this. Not even close. Three cheers for Carmack. As for an explanation as to why this is so much of a generational leap...the new Doom engine is using the GeForce 256 as its low-end. Nothing before it. Carmack is pushing us into the next generation with this, and not looking back. The idea being that by the time this is out a GeForce 256-level card will be pretty much the standard on lower end machines. -jason |
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the new Doom (stop calling it Doom 3! It's unnamed and almost certainly won't be called that!) Yeah, I like to call it DOOMNESIA - Been There, done that, got the T-Shirt, didn't like it, took it back. For me, NO GAME can justify a $600 graphics card. I could buy an entire X-Box for that much and chances are all the games for X-Box will be licensing the DOOMNESIA engine anyway. The video footage does nothing for me, for all I know it IS pre-rendered, straight out of MAYA. |
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Speaking of dynamic lights, I bet we see them in released games on the X-box way before Doom w/e comes out. Didn't those guys making Oddworld switch from the PS2 to the X-box because of the lighting capabilities? |
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brennan- Well, there are at least 2 of us.... Make that three. Ok so Quake 1 was a little more dissconnected then I would have liked, but not so much to effect my enjoyment to badly while playing. Stinky do I have to yet again point out the price gap between mac and pc hardware, and the price apple tends to charge for any thing. |
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Well the ideas in Daikatana were pretty good. It's not hard to come up with ideas. Great designers come up with great ideas that can actually be executed. I personally feel Daikatana was bad enough, design wise, to raise questions about Romero's ultimate contribution to DOOM. Well, that's assuming Daikatana HAD a design, because while I was playing it, it felt more like they just threw every single feature from every other game into the mix and called that a design. Maybe it was Sandy Peterson and American McGee that made DOOM DOOM... I dunno. But are we just talking about level design here or game design? People seem to intermingle the two things. DOOM was a simpler game, and while Romero may have been the world's greatest DOOM level designer, that doesn't necessarily mean those skills (which he didn't choose to put to use on his own game for some reason) are the equal of people that have been building 3D levels in Quake and Unreal for the last few years. |
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I liked the entire quake series. Changed multiplayer gaming forever! But Q2/Q3A didn't have the SP experience I was looking for. The prier, Romero-touched iD games did. I expect the upcoming Doom title to blow most of the other games out of the water with frightening atmosphere, intense action, *amazing* graphics and a fairly good storyline to boot. That's not too much to ask when it comes to a title that's guaranteed to get the gaming community's AAA attention right? ;) |
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#82, Steve, everyone knows Daikatana didn't make us Romero's bitch. But the fact that it wasn't the best title doesn't destroy Romero's reputation (as both a game and level designer) IMHO. The guy has played a key role in some of the gaming world's most coveted titles. One flop is a mistake that can (and I'm sure will) be learned from. Whenever the topic of DK and Romero's abilities comes up, I glance over Geoff Keighley's Knee Deep in a Dream article. Puts the game's creation process and failures into perspective. Hit with hype, team departures, engine switches, business structuring, etc. I'm amazed the game was even released. -Kel |
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I'm not really impressed Frankly, I don't think ID can pull good gameplay out of their asses. They have not done it for a long time, or, maybe they have never done it. If Doom was not such a shock to the system (IE Violent), I don't think it would have the reputation it does now. I have played it and found it rather boring. While Lithtech might not be the flavor of the month with the l33t d00dz, I have yet to see ID come up with anything as finely crafted as "Noone Lives forever". Really, now that I think about it, they have never topped Shogo:M.A.D. either. Here is a hint, You can pay to go to a big dark room and see something called a movie. It has many Special effects. Your eyes will dance in your head, and you'll squeal with joy. It's also a good deal cheaper then playing Video card bingo. You guys make me laugh. |
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I just want a good co-op game to come out, none of the games today really emphasize that aspect of gameplay. Serious Sam has given me hope however, mabye that can tide me over to D3... |
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So what is gameplay? Is it replayability? Is it how fun a game is? It seems to me every id game has had those two things nailed, so it must be something else. |
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But the fact that it wasn't the best title doesn't destroy Romero's reputation (as both a game and level designer) IMHO. The guy has played a key role in some of the gaming world's most coveted titles. One flop is a mistake that can (and I'm sure will) be learned from. If one has played a "key role" in some of the world's most coveted titles, how does one produce a flop like Daikatana? It's one thing to make a misstep because you were rushed or were legitimately trying to do something something radical and/or unique, but it was a derivitive game that was poorly designed, had poor levels, a stupid plot, terrible dialogue... blah blah blah. I find it difficult to grasp, "The guy that played a major role in DOOM, DOOM II and Quake made Daikatana." I can't make the connection at all. One bad game doesn't necessarily destroy someone's reputation, but it really does make you wonder how much he contributed to the overall design, theme and concepts of DOOM and Quake. Maybe he was the best level designer in his day, and maybe still is, but I'm guessing there's a difference between being a great level designer and working on a game's actual design and concept. And there's no shortage of great level designers out there today (certainly moreso then in the DOOM and Quake days), but there sure seem to be few people who know how to tie together a bunch of levels into something coherent and interesting, something with some overriding vision that draws the player into the game. And that's what a new DOOM needs. Maybe Romero is/was that guy. Or maybe it was Sandy Peterson. Or American McGee. Or even Jay Wilbur. Who knows? |
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Was Romero critical to the success of ID? Well evidence seem to point to the fact he was not only at best, a cursory team member, but rather a hindrance. After Quake, ID spent millions to get rid of Romero. I think that Quake might have been his first shot at living up to his reputation and he blew it big time. The game is a design fiasco. While Quake was a design joke, Romero did have the other member of ID looking over his shoulder. When he did get to create his Kingdom, where design was king. The Fruit of that dream was Duh-katana. I really think Romero was the guy at ID that went on Pizza runs and had the best people skills. This made him "The Face of ID". While he made a few doom levels, he did not make the lion's share. His name is not on the design document. Yet some how, in spite of his lack of input, he became the ipso facto designer of doom. The most Damning evidence of Romero, is Duh-katana itself. His name in right above the title. It's his baby, and he's never stopped proclaiming it as one of the best games ever made. His claim that Hype killed the game is a load of crap. The game is at best, mediocre. And one has to be speaking charitably to say that about it. It's not the worst game ever made, but it's in the top five. As to people that think ID games have exemplary game play, I observe, some people are distracted by shinny objects. |
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RE #42, thee treblekick: Current Macs have AGP 4x. The last round of G4's had AGP 2x. I doubt they'll build a PCI version considering the bandwidth limitations and how few people would buy one... :D |
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#68 said: However there is nothing in these Doom 3 shots model and enviroment wise that doesn't look like it couldn't be done on a Dreamcast (Which I uses as a point of reference solely because of Shenmue) You're high. I played all of Shenmue, and I never saw any lighting or models that could touch that demo. |
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Anybody here have a favorite band? Thought so. Any of your favorite bands ever put out an album that was worse than one before it? Thought so. But did they go on to make better albums? Thought so. (If not, why in the hell are they your favorite band?????) So why can't Romero screw up once and make a comeback? |
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And that's what a new DOOM needs. Maybe Romero is/was that guy. Or maybe it was Sandy Peterson. Or American McGee. Or even Jay Wilbur. Who knows? Jay Wilbur? id might as well re-hire Mark Rein as president. haha :) |
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Romero is indeed a great designer. Could the enviroment causing Diakatana happen again? |
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Just a point: by the time the next Doom comes out, GeForce3's will not cost anywhere near $600. |
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Anybody here have a favorite band? Thought so. Any of your favorite bands ever put out an album that was worse than one before it? Thought so. But did they go on to make better albums? Thought so. (If not, why in the hell are they your favorite band?????) So why can't Romero screw up once and make a comeback? G.G. Allin...game, set, match. ^M^ |
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WHY IN THE HELL IS THE GEFORCE 2 DEAD ALREADY? I bought a GEForce2 MX 3 months ago (still very happy with it) for 300 guilders (+/- 120 bucks?) so am I going to have to invest 600 guilders in a new videocard ALREADY? Or are you guys just the ultimate geeks that want to brag about their superior hardware? "Oh, that GEForce 2 thing is SOOOOOOO last tuesday!" :) (faggy) Besides, if they keep pushing the limit on hardware, they'll lose cuz no-one will buy a game if they can't play it unless they spend another 600 bucks. Those days are over. Look at how popular graphically limited games such as Half-Life and StarCraft still are! |
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#91: Shenmue is graphically L337 in the sense that it featured some very VERY fine girls (gorgeously modelled, too). OK there's not much lighting and stuff going on in there, but in terms of poly counts it rocks your box! (OMG that is one stupid remark...'rocks your box'! I've been hanging round in American kid chats too much and watched too much sitcoms!!!!) #92: *cough* Limp Bizkit *cough* Want some more reasoning? John Romero...Ion Storm...cash money bling bling....large glass penthouse....JOHN ROMERO'S daikatana.....stuckup little dwarf with large ego and stupid dreads... want to hear more? |
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Anybody here have a favorite band? Thought so. Any of your favorite bands ever put out an album that was worse than one before it? Thought so. But did they go on to make better albums? Thought so. That generally happens when they try to stretch beyond their artistic ability or they decide to do something different. What part of Daikatana really pushed game design or tried something no other game had done? And a follow-up record probably won't take 3-4 years go complete. But hey, I'm just skeptical. Romero could create the next Half-Life or DOOM. If it's in him, I wish he would. But again, nothing in Daikatana showed me any design skills or originality. He effectively had a blank check to create the game of his dreams and... well, look at the end result. |
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