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GeForce 3, Doom III, oh my!
February 22nd 2001, 14:23 GMT by Morn This is all over the web, so it can't hurt if we mention it here as well. <a href="http://video.cnet.com:80/cnet_news/template/ramgen.cgi?cpcode=674&asset=http://cnetnews.download.akamai.com/674/t022101_2200hi.rm&start=2166&end=506966&xtn=.ram">This RealVideo movie</a> of Steve Jobs' MacWorld keynote contains, yes, (supposedly) real-time footage of id's Doom III (running on nVidia's new GeForce 3, also known as NV20). And boy oh boy, does it looks nice! You can find more info on <a href="http://www.shugashack.com">the Shack</a>, <a href="http://www.voodooextreme.com">VoodooExtreme</a>, <a href="http://www.bluesnews.com">Blue's news</a> and very likely every other gaming site on the planet. Also thanks to everyone who emailed/ICQ'd us about this. |
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Topic: GeForce 3, Doom III, oh my!
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Bloody Hell. I can't wait untill Raven or ritual or somone turns this tech into a game. |
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I always thought the gothic stuff was the hallmark of the Quake series, courtesy of Tim Willits, who didn't work on Doom 1 & 2, if I recall correctly. The base levels in Q3A seemed like a throwback, a nod to Doom, which they hadn't decided on making again yet. #26- There's a PCI version of the GeForce2MX, which I put on my gf's computer and it's pretty sweet. It's also quite cheap. Innovision made it, and I believe Creative also has a PCI version. I think it'll last until Doom3, certainly. This Doom video really does look great, I just hope that Graeme Devine does more than just the sound, and they let him use his imagination in putting it all together. Those lights flickering gave me an idea for a scary moment in the game. How cool would it be to have a fire fight in strobe lighting? If you've never experienced it, someone suddenly putting there face in yours in strobe conditions is really startling. Just the way that strobe would put the monster models into relief, and then the next time you see them a split second later, they'd be on top of you, could be really effective. Anyone who doesn't have a seizure might soil themselves. |
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I meant to say the Gothic architecture was Willits trademark. The heavy metal style stuff is definitely going to make a return in Doom3. I thought it was atmospheric. |
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Here's an excerpt from an NVIDIA press release on Blue's: The first high-resolution antialiasing (HRAA) GPU, featuring NVIDIA's patented Quincunx AA mode, for high-resolution, high-quality, high-performance multisampling capabilities. How much do you want to bet that "NVIDIA's patented Quincunx AA mode" is actually 3dfx's patented AA? Oh well, now we've got the best of both. I just hope this $600 price tag isn't an indication that they feel they don't need to compete any longer. -Whisp |
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I just hope this $600 price tag isn't an indication that they feel they don't need to compete any longer. A few things to note about that price, Mac hardware is generaly cost $50 more then the same hardware for a PC. And second it's being added by Apple as a per order item, and that means apple will be chargeing speical prices for it. This also means apple will be the only company producing the mac versions (unlike the PC where things will work much like they have in the past). I can't imagne Nvidia charging a lot for the chips with ATI still putting up compotision for the base and mid level cards. |
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I don't know what the mac users are going to use a GeForce3 for - they just got StarCraft. |
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Hum should have checked the mac store. The GeForce 3 cost an extra $350 over the standered GeForce 2 MX that's included with the powermacs. To buy the card on it's own is $599, however a 32MB Radeon cost a whopping $249 (for comparisons NECX sells the mac Radeon for $196 and the PC version of the same card for $154). Assuming that the GeForce is about the same you can expect around a $100 price difference in for the PC versions (assuming Apple didn't jack the price up more then they did for the Radeon). |
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epic/bungie/volition/monolith are all so 0wned all though im sure their bitch apache will show up any time to brag about how impressive unreal warfare is hahahhahaha everyone may as well just give up and license doom3 |
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Ha, #36 has the first real 'fan-boy' post and wouldn't you know it... Anonymous. LOL I guess I'll have to fire up the 56k modem and download the video. I need to see what all the fuss is over. /me rubs the sleep out of his eyes and starts looking for a link. |
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woot! seriously though, I was really impressed w/ the DOOM III stuff, but a lot of the neato effects are due to the GeForce III I think. I doubt all that neat lighting stuff would work if you were without NVIDIA's $600 hunk of hardware. For that much cash you can buy an Xbox (that has a NV25) and like 5 games. Impressive - yes. Cost effective? Im not sure. :) I'd love to see some Unreal Warfare stuff (or even Halo and LT) shown off on a GeForce III as well. |
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#36, why exactly? Back it up. |
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It will be awhile until I will want to spend $600 on a video card... I can damn near buy a decent PC for that much money. And it will take more than 1 game (Doom 3) to justify that kind of price. |
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Oh and Theseus, I think he did all the explaining he needed to. He clearly stated that epic/bungie/volition/monolith have all been '0wned'. Now if that isn't scientific enough for you, I don't know what is. ;) |
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#26, demonicus... apparently, macs don't have agp ports [i read this earlier, but i don't have a mac myself, so take it with a grain of salt], making a pci version a very distinct possibility. tho from my understanding agp will give you better performance most of the time [and i'm sure someone will correct me if i'm wrong. that video looked amaaaazing tho, i was really blown away. if anything it almost looks TOO intense :] regards/john |
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Ill take your bet whisp and collect the money once you realise that the Gf3 hardware tapped out a while back, well before Nvidia got a hold of the 3dfx patents. Might see their tricks pop up in the next hardware release, but not til then. Try streambox for snagging streamed media, no link, soz. Ironic the mac gets it first, well they paid a load to be the first OEM, but being able to order the card doesnt mean youll get it. a $350 premium over the now standard Geforce 2 MX cards. Remember also, having it orderable doesnt mean getable, recall the furore 15 months ago about the G4 450s and 500s ... they cancelled ALL the pre orders for the 500, even though it was an announced product they _didnt have any_ and have ONLY JUST gotten a supply of them, the 450s were rarer than hens teeth. No apology, no explanation, just cancelled them .. yayy Apple. Theyre also the first OEM, which means no Compaqs Dells HPs etc YET, but, that doesnt mean they wont be on the streets available for the PC. Hell rumours abound that they ARE on sale in akiba japan, but the release date should be March 10th. Oh yeah, obligatory totally fucking nifty software app, this time a movie player (Just make sure you have AMERICAN ENGLISH as one of your locale profiles, otherwise allthe options will be in korean) http://sasami2k.kiwidream.com/sasami2k/sasami2k_640b.exe the tricks this thing pull are nifty squifty ! Doom3 looks nice, lets hope they remember to put a game in there WITH the eyecandy. Oh and as I recall Carmack stated that the Geforces will run Doom3 aok, but lower than that will struggle .... Ds |
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#38, Apache: I'd love to see some Unreal Warfare stuff (or even Halo and LT) shown off on a GeForce III as well. you know, it's not as if the gf3 makes engines look magically awesome. "showing off" lithtech on a gf3 will get you higher resolutions and anti-aliasing. it won't add any of the revolutionary per-pixel pipeline stuff that carmack is doing in doom3. as outlined in one of carmack's plans/speaches/papers/posts, per-pixel pipelines are the future, and it's not an nvidia-exclusive concept. through extensions, every other opengl card will support them when doom3 comes out. |
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Oh and Theseus, I think he did all the explaining he needed to. He clearly stated that epic/bungie/volition/monolith have all been '0wned'. Now if that isn't scientific enough for you, I don't know what is. ;) Har ;) |
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Apache, I think the lighting model is done in software. Or at least not all hardware. Anyway, you don't just get it "for free". I might be completely wrong though (but take it as an educated guess :) Oh, and I REALLY hope that the GF3 implementation of Anti-Aliasing will run with reasonable framerates. AA is so pretty! -enyak |
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I saw the video...(thanks to the mirrored link posted here)...and yes, I'm impressed with what is represented there.... However. I'm remembering the first shots of Quake/Q2/Q3A and what that ultimately evolved into. I'm just saying that the final product will not necessarily be what was in that demo. I am sure I'm not the only one that made the same mistake when the early shots of curved surfaces in Q3A surfaced on the web. I really thought that id would go all out and put them wherever they could, basically redefining level design. What did we end up with? Nice accents that you could put places, but nothing too tricky since the collision detection was a bitch to do...so - you had a hybrid between the boxy Quake/Quake2 look with some devil horns and organic tongues.... Also - recall that the initial level of detail in the tournament level that featured the big gaping mouth? I looked that pic up, and frankly what made it into the game is a highly optimized version of what sucked us into that screenshot in the first place. This is where someone should say "Well, you have to balance speed with detail..." Okay - great, just don't show me something that isn't realistic to do when you release the minimum system specs on the box...(a whole other topic we've beat to death before..) Will the new engine look great? Yes. Will it look exactly like the demo? No. That's really what I'm trying to say -- just don't get too sucked in, we've seen the difference between what has been promised and what the resultant compromise ends up being, so just keep some perspective while you're mopping up the drool off the keyboard. Desiato |
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Narcopolo: ...the Gothic architecture was Willits' trademark... Not sure about this; Willits was lead level designer on Quake2, which was nearly completely free of anything "gothic" (apart from the palace levels, which, incidentally, were designed by Paul Jaquays)... |
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Very proud of you guys for not making this a Mac vs PC btich fest..... Not meaning to be an Apple flame, but the Mac's lower volume means that prices for Vid cards and the like are a bit higher. If an Official Apple Video card costs $600, there'll me much cheaper PC versions ($400?) |
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Impressive stuff. I wonder how much of this uses the "pixel shader" capability of the GeForce 3, and how much is a really clever lightmap system? If its the former, then I wonder how good it looks on a Radeon or similar T&L card that doesn't have all of the proprietary Nvidia OpenGL extensions! (Unless iD switched to DirectX 8 without telling anyone, in which case you can use per-pixel and per-vertex shaders with Nvidia's scripting language on any card that cares to implement them) T&L is great, what would really make the GeForce 3 for me would be hardware accelerated per-pixel lighting, rather than vertex lighting. That would finally make T&L useable for games that rely on massively dynamic lightmaps (as opposed to just the "T" - transformation), and would make the Unreal Warfare terrain system look a LOT better, too. [That's assuming that the article I read saying that it uses T&L with vertex-lighting is true] |
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shit you guys call that impressive?!?! they have GOT to be kidding me. Joker. |
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re #22 The moving curved surfaces were dropped. Just was way too much a processor hit. So a lot of those early levels got gutted One day I'll get a real connection and be able to view the streaming version. meanwhile I'm off to hunt out this divx version |
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I will wait to pass opinion on any new product from id Software until I have it on my hardrive, and running. Also, Why did the boys at id NOT release the video to their fans and supporters before all the Mac technogoons? No offense, I used a Mac once. Id will push the envelope once again I'm sure, they always have in the past, but GAMEPLAY is where it's at, and they've been overlooking that area lately, IMHO. I am looking forward to Wolfenstein, and partly because a third party of fans are making the game and not id. I don't think id could have done the sequel justice. |
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I suspect Apple gives checks for such exclusives. Draws a lot of attention to them. Pity Microsoft just has more money and bought out Bungie rather than just getting something to show off "apple and openGL". |
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$500+ dollars for a video card is just plain insane. They are just games, not the cure for cancer. Also redgardless of the graphics, if the gameplay isn't good it won't matter after a few levels of playing. Look at the very lukewarm reception for Team Arena. People are less and less just buying up whatever iD software releases. Theres allot of good 3D tech around now(although the demo was very impressive). You have to give more than just fancy graphics to impress most people nowdays. If you don't believe then look at the most popular online action game now, Counter-Strike with mods like TFC also very popular, both using the HL engine which is almost 2 1/2 years old now. Gameplay is what counts in the end. |
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OK, here's the official place to comment. I just wanted to add further clarification to my comment last night about the price. I have not bought a new video card since the TNT2U was all the rage, so my time is comming to make a sufficient sacrafice to the video card gods. I recognize that, and even look forward to it. My problem with the price, is not that I feel that 600 bucks is so out of line that I could not be motivated to actually buy one, but it's the fact that I'm a Canadian. Anyone who's bothered to read my rantings around here will recognise this as a recurring theme for me, but only because it hurts so much. Adding in the excahnge rate, and the 15% sales tax, I would have to pay what will most likely be in the $1000.00-$1200.00+ dollar range to get this card into my house. Feel my pain. My friends in Aus can probably understand what the problem is here. But my god, that's worth more than an entire computer can be had for. On the topic of the video... that was awesome. On the topic of mac's. Who knows, I may have to augment my computer collection some day. OSX looks sweet. If there is ever an x86 version, I'm sold, no questions asked. |
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#56, I feel your pain. I'm in the same boat. Canadian, running a TNT2 and amazed by the video. The day I lay down the $1100+ for a GF3 will be bittersweet. Am I the only one wishing Romero were part of the Doom project? Could be nostalgia rearing its head, but an id reunion would definitely bring a smile to my face. -Kel looking forward to Doom3/GF3 |
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<i>Thinking...</i> |
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im canadian as well... just upgraded from a tnt2 ultra to a geforce 2 mx cost me about 150, including tax, at a puter store neat spadina and college in downtown toronto. completely worth the price, in my opinion... makes all the games i've played run noticably smoother. there's no point in getting the nv20 right when it comes out [in my opinion], because there will be few games that actually support it. that, and its price will be quite high. if you wait until some games come out that support the cards features, chances are the price will be substantially lower. thats why i bought the mx-- it'll give me decent performance in all games for a while, until i need to upgrade to a gf3 or above, probably in about a year or a year and a half... regards/john |
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bout time to convert those <i>old tags</i> into new ones morn. |
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Id making an incredible engine? No surprise. Its almost expected of them. Gameplay on the otherhand, is an entirely different matter. Impressive yes, but I'm not getting too excited over this. |
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Am I the only one wishing Romero were part of the Doom project? Could be nostalgia rearing its head, but an id reunion would definitely bring a smile to my face. I certainly share this notion. |
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Eh, I'll wait till I see real time volumetric lighting and fully volumetric shading before I shell out $700 on a video card ;) |
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Does this mean it be a lot easier for map makers to light levels? Instead of setting up a bunch of static lights etc. you just throw in real ones and watch em light the scene in real-time. I dunno if that will make lighting easer or harder. I imagine easier since you can see it in real-time. |
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Does this mean it be a lot easier for map makers to light levels? Instead of setting up a bunch of static lights etc. you just throw in real ones and watch em light the scene in real-time. I dunno if that will make lighting easer or harder. I imagine easier since you can see it in real-time. That would depend on the level editor/compile times which id haven't been that great about i the past (hey I edited tons of Quake-engine map ... I speak from experience). I heard they are coupling the level editor to the engine this time around, so hopefully they will come out with a nice level editor ... something that can show lighting in the viewports and such ... THAT would make level editing easier. |
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the engine is freaking awesome. Completely amazing. just think about what would happen if Paul Steed made some boobs for the engine. haha. |
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i showed the demo to a couple of normal people in art class (read=nongamers) and they really perked up, wanted to try it out, etc. sighs all around when they learned the game was still under construction and they had to shell over 600 clams. ^_^ but that, in itself, to get someone who knows nothing about games interested in them just by a small tech demo, is amazing. Who cares if the full version won't look exactly like the mac pimp edition video... this is a definate step forward for computer gfx in general, and that's a Good Thing (tm) i hope ^_^ /me dreams of long nights hiding in the shadows from imps and pinkies in that sweet, sexy engine... |
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The lighting is nice. Its in fact very nice. However there is nothing in these Doom 3 shots model and enviroment wise that doesn't look like it couldn't be done on a Dreamcast (Which I uses as a point of reference solely because of Shenmue), As whacky as this sounds, the demo only made me want an xbox more. *shrug* Demonicuss I too have an HP Pavilion. (8870 its an athlon 850) I do have an agp slot. However its useless (ei broken) and I have to use pci cards. I'm currently using a voodoo3 pci. If I have to upgrade I'll get a geforce 2 mx pci but I'm hoping I will not have to. |
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Uhh... an x-box wont have a ge-force 3 though. and all this stuff was demoed on the ge-force3 right? so who knows what it looks like on other cards |
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No #69 the Geforce 3 is the NV20. The two are basically the same design. Nvidia is calling the one for the Xbox the NV2A, but it will have all the same capabiltities. |
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That would depend on the level editor/compile times which id haven't been that great about i the past (hey I edited tons of Quake-engine map ... I speak from experience). I heard they are coupling the level editor to the engine this time around, so hopefully they will come out with a nice level editor ... something that can show lighting in the viewports and such ... THAT would make level editing easier. I know that's something Robert Duffy has wanted to do for some time. In fact the old Quake2 versions of QERadiant had a tool bar button to turn lighting effects on in the 3d view point (he was highered by id for Q3radiant before that ever got connected to any thing. |
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Am I the only one wishing Romero were part of the Doom project? Could be nostalgia rearing its head, but an id reunion would definitely bring a smile to my face. Not to be an ass or anything, but which parts of Daikatana make you think this would be a good thing? |
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That's not being an ass at all, Steve. Daikatana was an awful game and John Romero was the project leader. It doesn't inspire confidence in his abilities. But from what it sounds like, Romero was fairly hands-off in the actual coding of Daikatana, whereas on Doom and Quake, he got his hands dirty doing actual map design and miscellaneous programming stuff. In that regard, I could see people who enjoyed his design work in Doom/Quake hoping he could reproduce some of that in Doom 3. It's something that would never happen, of course, but it's fun to speculate. |
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#72, I totally concur with what Creole Ned (#73) said. Yeah, Daikatana wasn't the best game. Beaten horse. But that doesn't negate what he did with the Doom series and Quake1. Ever since Romero's departure, IMHO id hasn't made a good SP game. And since Romero was involved with the creation of Doom, I can't see his involvement being a bad thing. ..and again, for nostalgia's sake, Doom is partly Romero's baby. I think it'd be great to see an id reunion on the project. Never going to happen, but it's nice to dream. ;) |
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Not to be an ass or anything, but which parts of Daikatana make you think this would be a good thing? Well the ideas in Daikatana were pretty good. The sidekicks, the rpg system, the time travel story line and so on would have been great if they worked. This is why Romero needs iD. Someone who could make his ideas work. Now look at Quake 2 and 3. Devoid of personality and theme. Thats why Id needs Romero. |
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Am I the ONLY person in the world who thoroughly enjoyed Quake 1 & 2, both single and multiplayer, and enjoyed Q3A as well? I'm guessing that I am, with all the comments about "good engine as usual, but where's the gameplay?" I dunno, maybe it's because Quake 1 was my first real experience with modern PC gaming, and so I wasn't expecting much in terms of story, but I loved it in every way, and loved Q2 as well. Q3A I didn't play single player very much, because I have a cable modem and figured eh, what's the point, but I loved the multi. I always thought the Quake series, while in retrospect not on par with something like Half-Life, was still a lot of fun, and was both time and money well-spent. Also, I imagine Paul Steed is just banging his head against a desk right about now, weeping, and saying to himself "if only I hadn't been such an asshole...if only I hadn't made fun of Adrian Carmack's spindly girl arms..." -brennan |
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brennan- Well, there are at least 2 of us.... -Whisp |
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I've seen Halo up close plenty of times and believe me, the new Doom (stop calling it Doom 3! It's unnamed and almost certainly won't be called that!) blows it out of the proverbial water. When I first saw Halo (E3 '99) it was way above the competition and it still is incredible but it has nothing on what is in this Doom movie. Nothing. They've rewritten the graphics engine, but I don't expect it to look like this. Not even close. Three cheers for Carmack. As for an explanation as to why this is so much of a generational leap...the new Doom engine is using the GeForce 256 as its low-end. Nothing before it. Carmack is pushing us into the next generation with this, and not looking back. The idea being that by the time this is out a GeForce 256-level card will be pretty much the standard on lower end machines. -jason |
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