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Limeys review Black & White, gamers scratch collective heads.
February 20th 2001, 20:25 CET by Zachack

Recently, British gaming website PC Zone managed to <a href="http://www.pczone.co.uk/guest/php3/openframe.php3?page=http://www.pczone.co.uk/guest/newreviews/printrev.php3?id=33679">review</a> Lionhead Games' (or more specifically, Molyneux Games') Black & White, a game scheduled to come out right before the end of March (in the United States, at least).  What makes this review curious is that, theoretically, Black & White is still in the testing stage.  While the bug hunt is supposedly almost finished, this still raises the question of "What in the hell are they reviewing, and how can I get it?".

Granted, many game reviewers base their reviews off of gold master copies, allowing them to review the game before it hits stands, thereby (hopefully) increasing sales.  But unless I missed something, B&W hasn't reached that point (I assume that for a game of B&W's hype the "we went gold" news will be fairly hard to miss).  So what are they reviewing?  Here are some questions to ponder and blather on about:

1. Assuming that PC Zone has a final version, what do you think about exclusive reviews?  Also, how and why are they handed out?  Bribes?  Blackmail?  Just being a really nice guy?  Inquiring minds want to know!

2. If it isn't a final version, how unethical is this?  Is it unethical at all?  Since Lionhead hasn't attacked the review, should we assume that it is valid?

3. Now that you're talking, tell us about any bad experiences you may have had with the press, or vice versa.  C'mon!  I need gossip to live!  And don't forget to play name-dropping games!

P.S. Some German site apparently has also reviewed B&W.  Since I can't read German, I am going to ignore it.  However, feel free to make inflammatory remarks about the Germans if you are feeling grumpy.

- Zachack
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Home » Topic: Limeys review Black & White, gamers scratch collective heads.

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#1 by "Apache"
2001-02-20 20:30:10
apache@voodooextreme.com http://www.voodooextreme.com
woot, great topic! :)))
#2 by "sentinel"
2001-02-20 20:36:58
jeroen@metallica.com
I remember back in the days that I owned a Megadrive and a SNES that some of the major UK magazines from that time (like Mean Machines and C&VG) often had articles like: "It won't be out for another two months but believe it or not - we have somehow managed to get our hands on it and produce a review!!!" and it was pretty thorough and usually turned out to be accurate afterwards. What's the big deal?
#3 by "Woo-Fu"
2001-02-20 20:39:14
random1@speakeasy.org random1-2.dsl.speakeasy.net
I don't see the UK crowd screaming every time a US print/online mag does this, why is it an issue now?
#4 by "Apache"
2001-02-20 20:46:03
apache@voodooextreme.com http://www.voodooextreme.com
I don't see the UK crowd screaming every time a US print/online mag does this, why is it an issue now?


The US print media doesn't generally operate like that. Crap, where's Gestalt? He could explain the whole UK tabloid gaming scene to a "T". :)
#5 by "Kain"
2001-02-20 22:22:16
Kain@lionsource.com http://lionsource.com
Recently, British gaming website PC Zone managed to review Lionhead Games' (or more specifically, Molyneux Games') Black & White

In fact, the print-mag reviewed the game and the website just offers a snippet of the "real" review.
If I'm right informed, B&W is scheduled to go gold in these days.

Some notes to point 3 and the P.S.:
I guess you're talking about another print-mag-review:
German magazine PC Action (http://www.pcaction.de) reviewed B&W in its newest issue, which comes out tomorrow. They say, that they tested an English "beta 2.4".
Good to know, PC Zone got their hands on the first test-version already a month ago... : )

Kain - hoping his English isn't that bad ; )
#6 by "Anonymous"
2001-02-20 22:31:42
In fact, the print-mag reviewed the game and the website just offers a snippet of the "real" review.

If that's the case, that only makes it more interesting.  Don't print magazines have something like a 3 month lead time?
#7 by "szcx codemonkey"
2001-02-20 22:32:21
nedocze@hotmail.com http://www.whatwouldyodado.com/
I got the mad anonymous skillz, yo.
#8 by "Demon"
2001-02-20 22:36:19
I have been a reader of Pc Zone magazine for quite a few years.
I've always found that they very good at reveiwing games.

However I have not known them to review incomplete games. Considering LionHead is a British company its only natural that a british magazine gets the first review.
Also it might be worth considering that an ex-writer of pc zone is now working at lionhead.

Happy Birthday to pczone...100 issues aint bad for a magazine.
#9 by "Steve"
2001-02-20 22:58:02
steve@manic-pop-thrills.com http://www.manic-pop-thrills.com
If that's the case, that only makes it more interesting. Don't print magazines have something like a 3 month lead time?

That's only in the U.S. In England, it's more like one month.
#10 by "Grout"
2001-02-20 23:00:32
Grout@tweak3d.net
I agree, w00t :)
if I recall, this happened a few months back with some Nintendo magazine reviewing Turok 2, only it was a beta, my how time flies...
#11 by "Steve"
2001-02-20 23:03:21
steve@manic-pop-thrills.com http://www.manic-pop-thrills.com
1. Assuming that PC Zone has a final version, what do you think about exclusive reviews? Also, how and why are they handed out? Bribes? Blackmail? Just being a really nice guy? Inquiring minds want to know!

I can't say for certain about UK publications, but the why is easy: they're handed out by publishers to get publicity, which is true of all covers, preview or review. And publications say yes because they want to sell more copies of their magazine.

As for how, if I were a publisher I'd go with the publication with the highest circulation in order to get the most publicity. Bribes and blackmail wouldn't be necessary if you have a highly anticipated game a la Black & White.

2. If it isn't a final version, how unethical is this? Is it unethical at all? Since Lionhead hasn't attacked the review, should we assume that it is valid?

That's a better question. It's ethical if the build's status is disclosed, i.e. they state upfront that it's not a final version of the game.

However, it's not particularly useful to consumers because that publication is not reviewing the version you're going to buy at the store. A lot can be fixed or screwed up in the last couple of weeks of development.
#12 by "Anonymous"
2001-02-20 23:06:02
A founding member of the PC Zone team now works at lionhead.  Being it's 100 issue (longest PC gaming magazine ever in the world) there were some niftyness.  It was the cover story and hell, they got the exclusive review.

The reviewer went and reviewed it whilst inside Lionhead.
#13 by "Theseus"
2001-02-20 23:06:36
fuckit, I'll never get used to PC5, this was me.
#14 by "Grout"
2001-02-20 23:09:35
Grout@tweak3d.net
A founding member of the PC Zone team now works at lionhead. Being it's 100 issue (longest PC gaming magazine ever in the world) there were some niftyness. It was the cover story and hell, they got the exclusive review.


Good old PC Zone, I remember the days before it went out of publishing in Canada.  As a young lad, I spent many a fine hour reading through the Pr0nographic Game Ad Section at the back.  I had assumed they had gone out of business.
#15 by "Theseus"
2001-02-20 23:11:44
PCZone is rather Godlike.
#16 by "Terata"
2001-02-20 23:47:13
jeremys@artifact-entertainment.com
I recall an old issue of Video Games and Computer Entertainment which reviewed Thunder Force 3 for the Genesis... and right at the beginning the reviewer explained that he had a beta with only three (of 7) levels in it and was basing his review on that, heh.
#17 by "Fragaday"
2001-02-20 23:59:16
fragaday@bigfoot.com http://www.goingup.cfgn.net
PC Zone were the first mag (that I know of) to write about GoingUP (without prompting from me). That makes them Good.

If they want to review
#18 by "Fragaday"
2001-02-21 00:00:08
fragaday@bigfoot.com http://www.goingup.cfgn.net
Doh, clicked Post by accident.


Forgot what I was going to finish that sentence with now.
#19 by "MCorleone"
2001-02-21 00:00:38
john_st123@nospam.hotmail.com
HEY - Take this with a grain of salt - But I saw that ANDY SMITH submitted this "scoop" to Bluesnews.  Is this another Andy-ism?
#20 by "Fragaday"
2001-02-21 00:05:50
fragaday@bigfoot.com http://www.goingup.cfgn.net
Ah, I remember now.

If they want to review a game, maybe...

nope, lost it

dont you just hate it when this happens?
#21 by "sentinel"
2001-02-21 00:20:34
jeroen@metallica.com
I think PC Zone was originally a PC-spinoff of Game Zone or something, which was a pretty decent magazine too... Or MD Zone, something like that... Nintendo Zone?
#22 by "Apache"
2001-02-21 00:25:28
apache@voodooextreme.com http://www.voodooextreme.com
there's a good article on US PC mags at AVAULT.

http://www.avault.com/articles/getarticle.asp?name=mags
#23 by "Theseus"
2001-02-21 00:58:15
#21 it was called zero.  I believe it covered all 16bit formats at the time
#24 by "Steve Bauman"
2001-02-21 01:11:16
steve@manic-pop-thrills.com http://www.manic-pop-thrills.com
there's a good article on US PC mags at AVAULT.

There's one big flaw in the article: they should have disclosed the conflict-of-interest of "reviewing" these publications. They are in competition with magazines not only for readers but, more importantly, for ad dollars. A publication that covers the same field and is in competition can't be a watchdog over the competition. That's like expecting ABC News to cover NBC. It's impossible to do it without appearing biased.

Also their methodology for comparing reviews is flawed, as there is no baseline. Who's to say PC Gamer's apparent "soft" high review scores aren't more representative of the general public's tastes? I recommended they use their own site's ratings for that comparison, as I'm guessing they know their reviews aren't influenced by advertising, but they said that would look too much like self-promotion.
#25 by "Apache"
2001-02-21 01:22:18
apache@voodooextreme.com http://www.voodooextreme.com
#24 - Ah good point. That would be another good topic. :)
#26 by "Zachack"
2001-02-21 01:33:43
zachrounds@un-named.com
#25 I'd like to know how avault still exists, since the bandwidth for those demos and patches must be huge (I know they don't store them all, but they do store some), and their reviews are usually garbage.  I loved how they misinterpreted the meaning of the word "Oni" in their review of said game.
#27 by "Apache"
2001-02-21 01:35:49
apache@voodooextreme.com http://www.voodooextreme.com
#25: the big-ass banners on the right side of the page promoting games/services make big buckaroos.
#28 by "BobJustBob"
2001-02-21 01:37:31
kevinakabob@mindspring.com
This was a news item on LionGames.com waaaaaaaaaaaaaay back on Jan. 10th:

Here is another LionGames exlusive for you folks. We've received following quote, taken from the PC Zone UK online-forums, by mail just a few minutes ago. Have a read:
"Unbelievably, we've been told that it's ready, and we've got the world exclusive review in issue 100 (on-sale Feb 9th). I haven't seen it yet, but I can't wait"

We've contacted Lionheads' PR Lady to confirm this information. Here is what we got for you:
Q: Can you confirm that Black & White is done, or is this referring to a press/review version?
Cathy Campos: They are referring to a press version.
#29 by "Hresh"
2001-02-21 02:27:12
Dev31258@bellsouth.net
Yeah, I'm new here.. greetings to all of the peeps on the planetcrap boards..
I've read your posts for a couple of months now... LURKER NO MORE!

Err.. yeah. Anyway. Hi.  Back to the regularly scheduled programming.

Speaking of B&W.. the latest word on the release looks like March 30th (at the latest)..
All praise Jamie Durant.  
Waiting for this game is torture.. back to more Populous then, I suppose.
#30 by "Speed"
2001-02-21 02:55:59
speed@crew.fragland.net http://fragland.net
Been a while since I posted here. Do love the new (retro) look though ;)

1. About the reviewcopies : I don't know how it's being handled in the US or UK, but what I CAN tell you is how it's done in the Benelux (and believe me, that's not a standard).
Basically, reviewcopies are being sent out by large distributors or the companies themselves. Wether you get a reviewcopy or not is pure guessing. Sometimes you're the first one to receive a copy, sometimes you just don't get one.
What the distributors use to see who they'll send out a copy to is a complete mistery. Having the biggest amount of visitors or pageviews does not immediately mean that you'll receive the biggest amount of reviewcopies.
It seems to me that they care more about the company that's behind the site, rather than how much traffic the site gets (example : The Gaming Shrimp is owned by PlanetInternet - a big ISP - and they get ALOT of reviewcopies, while Gamespot.be gets a fair amount of copies, but still less than the shrimp).
Also, magazines get copies easier than websites. It seems that over here in the Benelux, the distributors still don't see the light that magazines have a smaller amount of readers than websites, and that therefor the impact of a review is smaller (or maybe that's just what they want -> less viewers means more people that will buy the game when it's crap ;p)
When a review is posted, one should send a link to the distributor to proove they've checked the game out (and personally I think it's to see wether you gave it a positive review or not, which probably has an effect on the amount of reviewcopies you'll receive in the future -> we at Fragland defenitely notice it since we're getting really small amounts - up to 0 - from certain distributors since we've posted some pretty harsh reviews that broke down some games but fuck them, we don't care and won't be bribed !)

Personally I must say that my best experiences are with companies that send out reviewcopies themselves (Ubi Soft, Microsoft, ...). You get them on time and don't have to keep asking for them
Companies like Activision and EA work with distributors in Belgium, and the distribution of reviewcopies plain sucks (you can even ask the guys from Gamespot over here, they'll say the same)

2. Reviewing a beta is not per se bad, but you have to mention that it's a beta, and I would rather call it a preview then.

About the PS : A beta has been distributed over here aswell. Guess they're all reviewing the beta version (which Fragland doesn't do because we think it doesn't give an accurate view of what the game will be like)

Speed
Fragland.net
#31 by "Jafd"
2001-02-21 03:29:17
JnoAspamFpleaseD@whatthefuck.com http://jafd.isfuckingbrilliant.com/
It is my understanding that B&W was feature-complete back in November, and the release date was pushed back to March only for bugfixing and many square centimeters of polish.

It wouldn't surprise me if some journos have been playing the game since then, and only now can start talking about it.
#32 by "None-1a"
2001-02-21 03:48:31
none1a@home.com
However, it's not particularly useful to consumers because that publication is not reviewing the version you're going to buy at the store. A lot can be fixed or screwed up in the last couple of weeks of development.


I've been luckly enough not to be working for a publcation and see what a difference a month can make.

Lets take a look at midtown madness 2 one month before release.
1: Lake in San Francisco that you should be able to drive though has no bottom, shame since this lake features promitantly in one of the races and going though it is the fastest route.
2: All Crash course races are possible to win on pro mode.
3: All races on pro are extremly easy

Month latter
1: Lake has been fixed, you can now enjoy running the race around this lake with out the frustration caused by avoiding the bottom less pit.
2: One of the San Francisco crash course races has had it's time greatly reduced on pro. The race is next to impossible to finish even with a perfict run.
3: Most pro races are still really easy

If I had to do a review based on the beta and ignored the ovious bug 1 and got word from the developers that the races would be made harder on pro the game would have gotten a rather high score. With the final some of the pro races have goten easyer not harder out side of that one race that I just can not win even tho I'd done it perfictly 20 times now. I find is unexcusable that the harder setting should give me no chalange and play more like the easy settings exepted for one race.
#33 by "Needle"
2001-02-21 04:29:53
mrklp@hotmail.com http://girlskissing.planetcrap.com
Madre de dios! Es el planeta de la Mierda!  

What the hell does that mean?
#34 by "Apache"
2001-02-21 04:38:25
apache@voodooextreme.com http://www.voodooextreme.com
Mother of God!  It's the planet of the crap!
#35 by "Player11"
2001-02-21 04:59:05
thrawnage@bigpond.com
I cannot wait for B&W, im all hyped up for it. But I have this fear that its going to some grand version of the Sims. Fantastic reviews, fantastic hype, fantastic sales but after 2 weeks it pains me to play the game again. Someone smack me around and tell my why Im wrong, please!?
#36 by "Gyruss"
2001-02-21 05:25:11
"A founding member of the PC Zone team now works at lionhead. Being it's 100 issue (longest PC gaming magazine ever in the world) there were some niftyness. It was the cover story and hell, they got the exclusive review.

uhh wrong. CGW(Computer Gaming World), just had their 200th issue anniversery. Been going since 1981.

I guess only time will tell if they had the permission of Lionehead to do this review. If they didn't I'm sure we'll be seeing some angered responses from Lionhead for reviewing what must be still a beta product.
#37 by "Steve Bauman"
2001-02-21 05:45:58
steve@manic-pop-thrills.com http://www.manic-pop-thrills.com
Being it's 100 issue (longest PC gaming magazine ever in the world) there were some niftyness.

Did they really say they've been around longer then any PC game magazine in the world? Hell, even the magazine I work for (Computer Games Magazine, formerly Computer Games Strategy Plus, formerly Strategy Plus) has been around longer. We just celebrated our 10 year anniversary and are on our 126th issue. Not that 100 issues isn't something to be proud of, mind you...
#38 by "Ohvee"
2001-02-21 06:51:45
ov@nycap.rr.com
I love the Curse of Monkey Island reference there, Morn. I think my favorite quote from that is actually "Nice Fluffy Towel." I ripped that sound out of the game and made an mp3 out of it. It just repeats and repeats on winamp....  well...  actually it doesn't.  Back to topic, from the impression of the review, i'm even more psyched to get this game. Even if it was before final testing and all that, do you think that Lionhead could break the game after having it practically done? I don't really think so.
#39 by "None-1a"
2001-02-21 07:09:34
none1a@home.com
Even if it was before final testing and all that, do you think that Lionhead could break the game after having it practically done? I don't really think so.


Not really, but I do have to wonder what wasn't really done and thus not talked about in the 'review
'. Is the Gesture system really as good as they say it is, or was there a bug in this that Lionhead assured them would be fixed. Can you really create unlimited wonders or is there a limit that just wasn't working in their copy, did they just assume this is the way it would be in the retail verion. What other bugs are there that where not talked about, will some of these not be fixed or be worse in the final.


I'm not about to pass up on the game because of the questions I have about the review, but I'm not getting more hopfull because of this (which would be what lionhead would have wanted).

On that last note I want to know one thing. If the review trashed the game how many people think lionhead would be all over PCZone for running a reivew on a early copy?
#40 by "Darkseid-[D!]"
2001-02-21 09:26:20
Darkseid@captured.com www.captured.com
Pc Zone tends to be a tad enthusiastic about some games and get 'exclusives'

eg, all the reviews of Mechwarrior 4 in November.. when the game only came Uk Retail in February (pissingly annoying for a me..... bought a sidewinder 2 JUST for that)

That aside, theres very little in the review that hasnt been said in previews, looks at, most anticipated game of 20XX features that have been running since Peter Molyneux said 'Lionhead studios is working on this.....'.  Its a bit like the saturation surrounding Tribes 2, I mean, does anyone HONESTLY expect to find any neat cool nifty fun swiftly groovy features when they get to play it for themselves?  I dont, and Im sick to death of the 923412424352432.4 (One was a corrupt jpg) that have been smeared around on various websites.  

To me B&W sounds very like Dungeon Keeper blended back with Populous, you can play nice and expand and only do war when needed. Or you can be, like Im almost sure Mr0n is going to be, an utterly evil shit and torture people just to see what happens. The first quest of rescuing the lost boy for his sister... dropping the sister in front of him (or on him) killing him, boy sees it and dies....  Well fuck a duck, that sounds like a level of freeform that superceeds Deus Ex's mark and multiple solutions means that the game should be different for everybody.

I wonder tho, how much of its going to rely on the personality of the player and how much on logic and how much on 'now what happens if I'.... Would love to see the logic heuristics going on in the background that can cope with the user just offing and doing something whacked.... Oh like say gathering up a mound of rocks and building them into a pyramid and stranding one of your peeps up on top of it .... then smiting the area with some overly powerful spell whilst the rest of your peeps look on...

Oh yes ... fucked up behaviour is going to be good.

Ds

*smites Cleghorn with Black&White cow of Kung Fu +7*
#41 by "Gunp01nt"
2001-02-21 13:42:57
supersimon33@hotmail.com planetp01nt.tmfweb.nl
A Belgian magazine called PC Gameplay (www.pcgameplay.com   DUH) also reviewed B&W, after printing the Lionhead diary for 3 years. They even got an interview with Peter Molyneux and had him explain the whole game.

Something else: this is going on for years, dudes! Remember beta-reviews? Think about publishers making exclusive deals with certain mags!...and other stuff
If I remember correctly we've had this discussion before.
Zachak, I personally don't understand why you're starting to whine about this issue NOW, while it's firstly already discussed, and secondly it's been going on for SOOOOOO long.

Some German site apparently has also reviewed B&W. Since I can't read German, I am going to ignore it. However, feel free to make inflammatory remarks about the Germans if you are feeling grumpy.

Do I sense some aversion against Germans here? LOL! I don't mind, I'm Dutch, but it seems you're not taking them seriously because you dont understand the language...?
#42 by "Gunp01nt"
2001-02-21 13:45:14
supersimon33@hotmail.com planetp01nt.tmfweb.nl
#30:
You'd have to be Belgian to call your site Game Shrimp (www.spelletjesgarnaal.be) :-P
#43 by "Greenbean"
2001-02-21 14:03:33
john@playerofgames.com www.playerofgames.com
Check out
http://www.boards.ie/bulletin/Forum6/HTML/001062.html

This sheds some light on what people think. Wasn't the entire story that 1) Some guy at pc-zone reckoned black&white would be all icing and no cake 2) Lionhead invite him down to prove him wrong 3) He arrives down, is impressed and then (this is the dodgy, perhaps untrue step/link) 4) Wasn't this the same magazine that provided the exclusive "Review" and published it against lionhead's wishes?
#44 by "Greenbean"
2001-02-21 14:04:41
john@playerofgames.com www.playerofgames.com
Bollix link didn't work...
../Forum6/HTML/001062.html
#45 by "Chella Kline"
2001-02-21 15:56:06
Wow, no registration, less Andy, I might start posting here again............. probably not.
#46 by "Sgt Hulka"
2001-02-21 16:29:56
Sgt_Hulka@Hulka.com www.hulka.com
Zachack, NEVER mess with Germans !!!
#47 by "Sgt Hulka"
2001-02-21 16:38:32
Sgt_Hulka@Hulka.com www.hulka.com
#37 Steve Bauman talked about "Strategy Plus" Magazine


Steve, I can remember going to GenCon many moons ago and these guys from Stategy Plus had a booth promoting their new magazine.  That was in like 1994 or so.
#48 by "Scott Miller"
2001-02-21 16:52:25
scottm@3drealms.com www.3drealms.com
#24 -- Steve wrote: "Also their methodology for comparing reviews is flawed, as there is no baseline. Who's to say PC Gamer's apparent "soft" high review scores aren't more representative of the general public's tastes? I recommended they use their own site's ratings for that comparison, as I'm guessing they know their reviews aren't influenced by advertising, but they said that would look too much like self-promotion."

I agree with this.  They should have found games that were reviewed in all three mags, then compared them, and after doing this 100 times you'd have a pretty good idea of how soft or hard a mag is on reviews.

My opinion is that an average game should score a 50%, in other words, the middle rating should represent an utterly average game, and better-than-average games scale up from there, and vice versa.  Instead, it seems that a game that is merely average scores around a 70%.  Kinda of reminds me of how investment houses and banks that rate stocks rarely use a "sell" rating -- just heard yesterday that of the 5000 most recent ratings by all the top rating banks, on 47 were "sell."

I am encouraged when I see a high profile game like Timeline get a 10% rating, as it did in the most recent Computer Games.  ;-)

Scott
#49 by "MaverickUK"
2001-02-21 16:58:24
peter.bridger@tpg.co.uk
Sorry guys, off topic... and I'm sure this has already been said before... but is there a version of CrapSpy that supports PC5?

Or is Morn forcing us to us his interface (Which is great BTW Morn! ; )

--
Mav
#50 by "Steve"
2001-02-21 17:31:19
steve@manic-pop-thrills.com http://www.manic-pop-thrills.com
Steve, I can remember going to GenCon many moons ago and these guys from Stategy Plus had a booth promoting their new magazine. That was in like 1994 or so.

That was probably us, though we weren't exactly "new" then, though there had been some editorial changes around that time. The magazine was launched in 1990.
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