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The community shouts 'more mods!'
May 14th 2000, 00:20 CEST by BuccAneeR

With the first hacks of DOOM everything began. The users began to customize the game the way they liked it to be. A level editor has been released and loads of levels were available. id Software soon understood how important these volunteer developers were for the game and its community.

Can today developers still allowed themself to ship out games without any major modification possibilities?



After the release of Quake their was a mass production of new levels, models and gameplay modifications. Surley the unique programm language Quake-C was one reason for it. Quake-C allowed the programmer to change easily the gameplay and to add new features. With this attraction, id Software gave a big present to the community. On of the most famous modifications are Capture the Flag, which is now an unofficial standard in all first person shooters, Team Fortress and Counter Strike

Other companies followed this trend made by id Software: 3D Realms with the Built Engine (Duke Nukem 3D), Epic Megagames with Unreal and Monolith with LithTech (Blood 2). All of these games were commercially very successful.

Now there is the question: Would these games have been so successful even if they did not have the possibility to modificate them that much?

C O M M E N T S
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#1 by "Jafd"
2000-05-14 00:22:37
jafd@whatthefuck.com
Does anyone else think that the grappling hook is just about the stupidest thing to come down the pipe?<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#2 by "CaveFish"
2000-05-14 00:24:01
cavefish@k-quake.de http://www.k-quake.de
Yea, that´s right...i would never played Quake 2 DM so much - played L(a)M(er)CTF all time =)

And even CounterStrike is somewhat more famous than much games...
#3 by "Andy"
2000-05-14 00:30:19
andy@planetcrap.com
<quote>
Built Engine (Duke Nukem 3D)
</quote>
Buil*d* Engine.
<quote>
Monolith with LithTech (Blood 2). All of these games were commercially very successful.
</quote>
Blood 2 bombed!


Welcome to the team. I have no idea who you are, but it's always nice to see some fresh blood around here. :)
#4 by "PiRaMidA"
2000-05-14 00:55:24
piramida@usa.net http://www.agsm.net
Imho, modifyable games develop much more addicted userbase. It happened before, with text MUDs, where only selected few were able to actually modify something, and you had to prove yourself worthy.

With DOOM/Quake, it has been made available to anyone, and alot of people jumped into programming / "hacking" games. At first, it is fun to just make some stupid abnormally powerfull gun; then you get deeper into details, then you start making maps / balanced mods, and when you know all the technical details of the game you automatically become a true fanatic, without even noticing it.

There is another aspect of modifyable game, extension of game's life and playability. I still however do think that the privilege to modify games should not be as available as it was in Quake - if there would only be few people doing mods (few meaning hundreds, not hundreds thousands as it was) it would be much better for community as it would not generate a flow of low-quality mods.

By making game's interface harder to dig only the most dedicated players would be able to produce mods, and only after learning the game better. But, on the other hand, it would surely reduce the number of "coding" addicts - which might or might not be a bad thing; games are not meant to teach people code, anyway.

You could argue that without thousands people doing mods we would not see the gems like CTF, TF, RA, CS, etc - but I do think it is untrue. All of these mods were started by (semi-)professional coders, and they would not be anywhere near their success if they would be done by an average Joe after his Visual Basic 101.

As for the completely closed-source games, where extensions are released by the developer only - well, time for such games has passed, imho. Unless they are single player quests, which are not (usually) meant to be replayable anyway.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#5 by "G-Man"
2000-05-14 02:12:36
jonmars@shiftlock.org http://www.shiftlock.org
<b>#0</b> "BuccAneeR" wrote...
<QUOTE>With the first hacks of DOOM everything began.</QUOTE>
The Commodore 64 and Apple ][ were really the platforms where the concept of <i>mods</i> began (at least for the mainstream user). Both machines had a wide variety of games which were designed to be extensively modified by their playerbase, and don't forget that the C64 manual included a register level technical spec of the machine.

<quote>Can today developers still allowed themself to ship out games without any major modification possibilities?</quote>
Out of the several thousand games that are released each year exactly how many of them do you think <b>were</b> designed to be modified by the end user?

<quote>On of the most famous modifications are Capture the Flag, which is now an unofficial standard in all first person shooters, Team Fortress and Counter Strike</quote>
Capture the flag in its purest form has been present in video games for almost twenty years. As far as first person shooters go, <b>Rise of the Triad</b> was the first in the genre to include a CTF game type.

Additionally Counter-Strike does not have a CTF mode.

<quote>Other companies followed this trend made by id Software: 3D Realms with the Built Engine (Duke Nukem 3D)</quote>
<b>Duke Nukem 3D</b> and the Build engine both pre-dated Quake by nearly a year.

Nice grammar, punctuation and spelling by the way. It is forgivable in a post, or even a very lengthy essay, but not in a 200 word topic. I sincerely hope that English is not your first language.

 - [g.man]<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#6 by "Andy"
2000-05-14 02:24:09
andy@planetcrap.com
<b>#5</b>, G-Man:
<QUOTE>
The Commodore 64 and Apple ][ were really the platforms where the concept of mods began (at least for the mainstream user). Both machines had a wide variety of games which were designed to be extensively modified by their playerbase, and don't forget that the C64 manual included a register level technical spec of the machine.
</QUOTE>
The first modifiable game I remember was Kickstart 2 on the Spectrum and C64. It had a built-in track editor. I'm sure there were others before that, though.
<QUOTE>
Nice grammar, punctuation and spelling by the way. It is forgivable in a post, or even a very lengthy essay, but not in a 200 word topic. I sincerely hope that English is not your first language.
</QUOTE>
I'm sure he appreciates you saying so.
#7 by "shaithis"
2000-05-14 02:27:53
chrisb@gamespy.com http://www.gamespy.com
G-Man:

It probably would've been more pleasant to mail him that final comment, rather than posting them to the board. I realize this is PlanetCrap and all, but have a little common courtesy.

-shaithis
(gamespy.com)
#8 by "shaithis"
2000-05-14 02:28:13
chrisb@gamespy.com http://www.gamespy.com
Heh, crap, Andy beat me to it. :P

-shai
#9 by "Vengeance[CoD]"
2000-05-14 03:07:38
rhiggi@home.com
<b>#7</b> "shaithis" wrote...
<QUOTE>G-Man:

It probably would've been more pleasant to mail him that final comment, rather than posting them to the board. I realize this is PlanetCrap and all, but have a little common courtesy.

-shaithis
(gamespy.com) </QUOTE>

here here.  Besides some of us don't mind a few grammer errors.
As to the C64, first off, I loved that thing.  I think radar rat race was the first game I played but I remember the D&D titles better (I loved Pool of Radiance).  Nostagla aside, If hes talking about FPS would he still be wrong?  He's only mentioned FPS games so that could be where hes coming from.

V<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#10 by "Apache"
2000-05-14 03:09:02
apache@warzone.com http://www.voodooextreme.com
just reading the topic/grammer tells me english is not his first language. (german?) maybe someone could suggest he send in his topics to andy so he can copy edit it for punct., flow and content before it's posted on the main page. :)
#11 by "Bad_CRC"
2000-05-14 03:16:21
<b>#2</b> "CaveFish" wrote...
<quote> L(a)M(er)CTF</quote>


hey you bastard.
 
 
hehe.
 

________________________________
<b>dumb·ass</b> <i>(Düm-èSS)</i> n. - Anyone who doesn't agree with me. <I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#12 by "G-Man"
2000-05-14 03:16:35
jonmars@earthlink.net http://www.shiftlock.org
Sorry if I seem rude... but this guy's post is completely invalid. Numerous factual errors and erroneus assumptions. None of the "questions" raised by him are even debatable, but can be answered by a slight amount of research.

If he won't take the time to develop a well reasoned and supported argument then I certianly won't take the time to respond in a courteous manner. Besides I'm mean.

 - [g.man]
#13 by "Bakshra"
2000-05-14 03:34:22
bakshra@3dportal.com http://www.3dportal.com
I've been following the FPS gaming scene in one way or another for four years now. I can honestly say I don't think these games would be as popular today if they were unable to be modified. These huge mod communities that spring up also keep these games popular for ages beyond what their life span would be otherwise.

Just look at any Half-Life or UT site, a majority of the news is about mods. I really thing they are a driving force behind the lasting power of these games.

I'll use Quake as an example. I probably played through the single-player part of the game 2 or 3 times total, yet the ability to build my own levels (I use to be an avid Worldcraft user) and Threewave CTF kept the game on my hard drive for years.

The ability to play games against others on the internet is also a major driving force keeping these games alive and popular, but mods come into play here yet again. Just look at the Half-Life scene. Without Counter-Strike, I'm pretty sure Half-Life would not be played on nearly so many server.

In short, no, I don't think these games would have done so well without the ability to be edited in one form or another. I really think we've got a good industry here, with the people making games so willing to let others toy with their creations. You don't see that in many other places.
#14 by "Andy"
2000-05-14 05:31:27
andy@planetcrap.com
<b>#10</b>, Apache:
<QUOTE>
maybe someone could suggest he send in his topics to andy so he can copy edit it for punct., flow and content before it's posted on the main page. :)
</QUOTE>
Or perhaps not.

My view of written English has always been: Can you understand it? Yes? Then it's good enough. Does this sentence make any less sense because Iv'e put the apostraphe in the wrong place and spelled apostraphe wrong?

Anyone who thinks 'good' writing should follow rules needs to have a look at <a href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0586085882/qid=958274813/sr=1-1/026-9434197-6668858">Last Exit To Brooklyn</a>. Writing is about communication, not the knowledge of rules.

No excusing the factual errors, though. But give him time.
#15 by "Kevin"
2000-05-14 06:04:12
kdow@home.com
Making your game easier to modify can greaty extend the shelflife of a game.  Would Quake or Q2 be so popular if it didn't have all those mods?  So it would make sense for a developer to release SDK's as soon as possible so as to let the game buying public make changes.

Unfortunatly too many devlopers wait way to long to release source codes for their games and the initial buzz has died down and interest is lost.
#16 by "Apache"
2000-05-14 06:37:11
apache@warzone.com http://www.voodooextreme.com
andy: don't tell that to our biz guys, or our full-time copy editor will lose his job:)
#17 by "RzE"
2000-05-14 07:32:16
rze@counter-strike.net http://csnation.counter-strike.net
Someone tell PlanetCrap to post a better topic :P

How about E3, too company ran, or the best place for the inside info?<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#18 by "G-Man"
2000-05-14 07:44:10
jonmars@shiftlock.org http://www.shiftlock.org
Is it just me or have the quality of topics/threads on PC been going downhill? I mean I know it has only recently been back after nearly a year long hiatus, and I'm thankful for it. Honestly I am, but the last few threads didn't seem to have had much thought behind them, but were rushed out the door simply to provide a new forum for discussion.

We're all so eager for new threads that we disregard the fact that there is little to discuss about the posts, and just proceed to make up our own topics. Is it because we are in the midst of a lull in gaming news? Or are the PC staff just out of ideas?

If so, I propose that this thread be devoted to brainstorming new topics for discussion. Here is my submission:

Engine Wars
Since the dawn of computer games, developers have embraced the concept of game engines. Infocom had their parsing engine, Sierra had SCI, Lucasarts had SCUMM, id had Quake, 3D Realms had Build, Muds had Diku, etc. By developing a core engine which was independent of content, designers could lower their overall development time. Why reinvent the wheel for every new game?

But as engines have increased in their scope, modularity, and complexity, developers are now increasingly able to reuse code, and concentrate more on developing content than on new features.

I guess what I am saying is that at some point in the near future a number of engines will be available which will be so modular and flexible that they will never need to be entirely rewritten. And when that time arrives what will it mean for the game developers and the consumers?

Imagine if you will that Monolith really made good on it's claim to having creating a gaming OS. Let's say they've released an engine that instead of licensing to developers they instead sell to the gamers themselves. They would support new hardware and technology via patches, and games utilizing the engine would carry markings like : Requires Lithtech v2.3 or higher.

Andy... stop yelling at the monitor. I'm just using Monolith as an example here. Anyway it's food for thought.

 - [g.man]<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#19 by "Jafd"
2000-05-14 08:07:07
jafd@whatthefuck.com
<b>#18</b> "G-Man" wrote...
<QUOTE>Imagine if you will that Monolith really made good on it's claim </QUOTE>

We would be too busy being outside and gawking at the flying pigs to play games in this case.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#20 by "Geoffrois"
2000-05-14 08:18:45
fraktal@videotron.ca http://pages.infinit.net/fraktal
<b>Would these games have been so successful even if they did not have the possibility to modificate them that much?</b>

3 of my friends bought Half-Life to play Counter-Strike, none of them ever played more than 10 minutes of regular single player Half-Life.

Oh yeah and I noticed that G-man:

"<i>Additionally Counter-Strike does not have a CTF mode.</i>"  

Hehe, just thought it was worth pointing out :)
#21 by "Andy"
2000-05-14 08:24:48
andy@planetcrap.com
This talk of Monoltih making *chuckle* a good game gave me an idea - wouldn't it be cool if while playing Duke Forever you find a PC, and when you turn it on you get to play the whole of both Shogo and Blood 2, with all the bugs fixed too?

Shouldn't take the 3DR guys more than a few minutes to add that.
#22 by "Apache"
2000-05-14 09:33:12
apache@warzone.com http://www.voodooextreme.com
if you're bored with that topic, feel free to flame me on my <A HREF="http://www.gamefan.com/hotinfo.asp?s=6705&rs=">best of E3 article</a>. :-)

/me hopes HTML is enabled.
#23 by "G-Man"
2000-05-14 10:27:28
jonmars@shiftlock.org http://www.shiftlock.org
<b>#22</b> "Apache" wrote...
<QUOTE>but rest assured, when we can, we’ll reveal why Justin Chin’s New Legends was indeed the best Computer game shown this year</QUOTE>

Hrm... knew he was working on something, just didn't know what. Screenshots didn't look very impressive.

 - [g.man]<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#24 by "Frac"
2000-05-14 10:47:34
kkwyu@yahoo.com
<quote>This talk of Monoltih making *chuckle* a good game gave me an idea -
                                   wouldn't it be cool if while playing Duke Forever you find a PC, and when you
                                   turn it on you get to play the whole of both Shogo and Blood 2, with all the
                                   bugs fixed too?

                                   Shouldn't take the 3DR guys more than a few minutes to add that. </quote>

You can't do that.  Such an unrealistic element will detract us from the gameplay :)
#25 by "Bad_CRC"
2000-05-14 11:02:34
<b>#21</b> "Andy" wrote...
<quote>wouldn't it be cool if while playing Duke Forever you find a PC, and when you turn it on you get to play the whole of both Shogo and Blood 2</quote>


You are assuming that when DNF does finally come out,  anyone would remember what shogo and blood2 were...
 
:)

________________________________
<b>dumb·ass</b> <i>(Düm-èSS)</i> n. - Anyone who doesn't agree with me.
 
<a href="http://hammer.prohosting.com/~badcrc/Bad_CRC.gif"></a><I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#26 by "BuccAneeR"
2000-05-14 11:06:08
buccaneer@planetquake.com http://www.yakoon.de
I excuse for some grammar and punctuation errors. Apache was right, I'm from Germany and my English isn't perfect. I sent this topic firstly to morn, but he still was/is at E3. I promise, next time there won't be such a surge about my English skills :)

About the topic: I wrote it because I was about 2 years involved in the Quake (mod) scene. Most people I know only play Quake/UT because they can make levels or mods for it. Therefore the feature of modifications are a heavy aspect of how many copies will be sold of the game IMO.

G-Man: I think it's quite rude to begin a new topic in this thread. If you don't like mine then go away and post to another thread or send a email to andy and he'll post your suggestion.

I hope that the other readers know what I wanted to say with my topic and that they go on with discussing it.
#27 by "Paul"
2000-05-14 11:46:33
paulb@aerosoftware.com
I am not convinced mods as expansive as counterstrike will be around in a few years....

why?

There are quite a few free open source engines out there which are getting closer and closer to the technology which the big games like Half-Life, Quake3, UT use.

Once the tech is in the same ballpark, it would make more sense for a team like Counter-Strike to use an independent engine which would allow them to release the mod for free with the possibility to charge later, as well as the ability to control 100% of the technology it uses.

I am assuming that technology continues on a similar pace as it has lately. There are many more individuals on the edge of engine technology now, than were let's say 5 years ago.

Absolutely, mods are important to the continued success of a game. I will not buy a game that has no multiplayer aspect, or does not allow a mod team to create a multiplay modification. If American McGee is smart, he will include multiplayer options so that a mod team can easily take advantage of the great Quake3 Net_Play. I have been looking forward to Alice since it was announced, but seeing those awful pics a week ago, and now learning that it will contain to multiplayer, I can gurantee I will put my $40 elsewhere.

- Paul
#28 by "lechifre"
2000-05-14 11:51:45
user@casinoroyale.softnet.co.uk
G-man you're a big whinger
How about saying someting positive for a change, stop nit picking.
#29 by "RahvinTaka"
2000-05-14 11:53:30
donaldp@mad.scientist.com
Very kewl sig there <b>#25</b> "Bad_CRC"
:P
<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#30 by "RahvinTaka"
2000-05-14 12:16:24
donaldp@mad.scientist.com
<b>#27</b> "Paul A. Bullman" wrote...
<QUOTE>I am not convinced mods as expansive as counterstrike will be around in a few years....

why?

There are quite a few free open source engines out there which are getting closer and closer to the technology which the big games like Half-Life, Quake3, UT use.
</QUOTE>

I played around with a few and none come close to being an engine comparable to Q3 or UT. There are some "renderers" out there that compare (ie are just a little slower or little less compatible across systems) such as Titan/Aftershock (Both bsp renderers). There are a number of different engines out there that are close to being complete feature-wise (ie CrystalSpace/Genesis) but they all use archaic methodologies to write games. Most of them come from the "engine-is the game-is the engine" school of thought which mixes code left right and center giving no clear cut division between logic, engine features.

These other engines (ie CrystalSpace/Genesis) are also on average about 3-4 years behind games going to market quality wise. ie CrystalSpace can render q3a maps but at a ungodly slow speed. Many of these games still rely on technology that is old now (ie most don't have Hardware T&L, use crummy texture system,  have trouble with models above 700 polys).

The best/most complete "engine" out there is the quake engine updated by quakeforge guys with new features added by various teams (ie shaders will be in it soon as will better support for various lights/reflective surfaces etc). Even so most people are not going to mod for quakeforge over q3a or UT simply because of popularity, the games are more popular.

Even if they did make a mod it would be virtually impossible to sell it (ie distribute content) because of licensing quake was released under. As soon as some1 got the code (assuming that the new mod became popular enough) they could theoretically create new content and then invalidate the original teams sellability.

Besides how many games have been created with these engines. I can only count a few compared to number of mods. Mods are much much much more easy to do and thus allow for average Joes to have a shot. They also can do it incrementally.

It is also good if the companies lay down some sort of framework. ie it is much more easier to create a ok mod in UnrealScript (if you can grok the language) because of it's framework, same for Halflife while Q2 was Harder (haven't looked at q3a yet).

So I think they will exist and continue to be as expansive but I think the engine writers will do a number of things. Add more hooks for users to develope with and support the developers either financially or through equipment. This is happening now with Halflife and to a lesser extent UT and I hope to see it get better.

One thing I would like is to see University researchers team up with /game developers -- both amateur and professional. There is a project called Bamboo at NSPSNET that could see truly expansive extensive games. Oh well heres to dreaming :P

<QUOTE>
Once the tech is in the same ballpark, it would make more sense for a team like Counter-Strike to use an independent engine which would allow them to release the mod for free with the possibility to charge later, as well as the ability to control 100% of the technology it uses. </QUOTE>

Controlling the technology is good and Valve keep throughing more options at developers as time goes by. Pity their base engine wasn't so hot ... then again they may have stolen all modders to their engine if it was. (And diversity is a good thing ... at least now)

<QUOTE>I am assuming that technology continues on a similar pace as it has lately. There are many more individuals on the edge of engine technology now, than were let's say 5 years ago. </QUOTE>
Keeping on the edge is very difficult if you are only part time doing it for fun. Especially when you could easily earn copious amounts of money doing it for real. (AT least if you are really on the edge)

<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#31 by "Serpwidgets"
2000-05-14 12:50:28
serpwidgets@hotmail.com http://people.ce.mediaone.net/serpwidgets/index.ht
<b>#14</b> "Andy" wrote...
<QUOTE>Does this sentence make any less sense because Iv'e put the apostraphe in the wrong place and spelled apostraphe wrong?</QUOTE>

It may make as much sense in the end but it takes me twice as long to read it because of the errors. <b>That</b> is truly annoying. Not everyone internally translates written text into their own mental tongue the same way as you do, Andy. When I read stuff like that it doesn't translate properly into my mind's internal language and I have to specifically stop and resolve each little "error" in every sentence. It interrupts the flow of the whole thing and, in the end, makes it more time-consuming to read, and more difficult to digest properly. Try some empathy on that one, please. :)

Especially annoying is the misuse of your and you're, there, their, and they're, and of course <b>definately</b>which is fucking spelled <b>definitely</b>, as in <b>finite</b>.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#32 by "Serpwidgets"
2000-05-14 12:58:59
serpwidgets@hotmail.com http://people.ce.mediaone.net/serpwidgets/index.ht
Back in the 80's, I played a lot of modifyable games on the C=64. Electronic Arts had:
Racing Destruction Set - Make your own tracks
Adventure Construction Set - Make your own adventures
Pinball Construction Set - Make your own pinball games
Ultimate Wizard - Donkey Kong genre, make your own levels
Mail Order Monsters - Ok, so I had to hack this one to modify it, but still...

But there has been a renewal of this type of editability, and it does seem that Doom/Duke/Quake played vital roles in starting the trend this time.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#33 by "Desiato"
2000-05-14 15:05:57
desiato_hotblack@hotmail.com http://www.spew2.com
I'm telling you -- if you don't ship a game that can be customized in some way, ie skins and mods, then you are just making sure that you title won't be revitalized by the fans that like it. So I think it makes economic sense to structure a game in such a way that users can modify the most interesting parts, (art, models, physics etc..) without having to "give it all away" -- like giving "open source" access to the entire code.

Actually, there is a thread on Slash(elite)Dot about how open sourcing just makes cheating harder to comabat.

I remember trying to get models and such into Quake2. I was successful -- bad tutorials notwithstanding, but the texture quality and the method you had to use to get things into the game seemed overly arcane. Too bad, I was going to make a humorous Spew movie using that engine...looks like I'll have to confine my imagination to Unreal Movie Making...not that it bugs me -- at least it has better palette support.

Q3A probably isn't too much better, methodwise - but I'll refrain from outright criticism until I atttempt to do something with it.

Desiato..

www.spew2.com
#34 by "Serpwidgets"
2000-05-14 15:34:57
serpwidgets@hotmail.com http://people.ce.mediaone.net/serpwidgets/index.ht
<b>#4</b> "PiRaMidA" wrote...
<QUOTE>I still however do think that the privilege to modify games should not be as available as it was in Quake - if there would only be few people doing mods (few meaning hundreds, not hundreds thousands as it was) it would be much better for community as it would not generate a flow of low-quality mods</QUOTE>

I disagree: the low quality mods didn't really flow very far, they pretty much stayed out of notice. Being able to implement something doesn't mean you're good at coming up with great ideas. I think the process of natural selection works just fine for this. People who make crappy stuff will either not get it noticed, leave the scene, or get better. Yes, there is sometimes a lot of crap to sift through to be able to find a gem, but that's one of the consequences. Do you think there would be so many good mods/levels/etc. out there if some people hadn't honed their skills with earlier games? Just think of it as an investment in your gaming future. :)<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#35 by "McGrew"
2000-05-14 15:49:19
mcgrew@famvid.com http://TheFragfest.com
<B>Wow! You're all back!</b>

I really missed this place! Hey, nice paint job.

Next time I'll be on topic, I promise.

-steve

(Springfield Fragfest)
TheFragfest.com
#36 by "Steel"
2000-05-14 16:19:35
Foogla@gmx.de
Hmm, nobody mentioned Star Craft and Diablo. These Games were very successful
but had no (easy) customizable features. Okay StarCraft had the Campaign Generator,
but who plays today SC single player?

Steel out.
#37 by "Andy"
2000-05-14 16:39:02
andy@planetcrap.com
<b>#26</b>, BuccAneeR:
<QUOTE>
G-Man: I think it's quite rude to begin a new topic in this thread. If you don't like mine then go away and post to another thread
</QUOTE>
Well said that man!
<QUOTE>
or send a email to andy and he'll post your suggestion.
</QUOTE>
But nooo! Sorry, I'm not posting anyone else's topics this time around. I'd still like for people to let me know about stories that they think should be covered here and if I agree then I'll post them, but posting things <b>for</b> other people is just too much hassle. (With all the silly flames, I mean.)
#38 by "deadlock"
2000-05-14 16:40:10
deadlock@eircom.net
<quote>Writing is about communication, not the knowledge of rules.</quote>
True enough Andy, but following (simple) rules of grammar makes a piece far easier to read and enables the author to communicate his point more effectively. Personally, if I find it difficult to read the first line of an article/post because of stupid mistakes in spelling, grammar, punctuation and the misuse of words like their/there, here/hear and so on, then I generally can't be arsed reading the rest of the article.

Anyway, Buccaneer's assertion that the more readily modifiable a game is, the more commercially successful said game will be is a bit wide of the mark. Most people aren't as tuned in to the gaming/mod scene as we are - they still buy games though. Why ?

deadlock

'i believe in this and it's been tested by research: he who fucks nuns will later join the church...'
#39 by "Serpwidgets"
2000-05-14 17:11:15
serpwidgets@hotmail.com http://people.ce.mediaone.net/serpwidgets/index.ht
<b>#38</b> "deadlock" wrote...
<QUOTE>Anyway, Buccaneer's assertion that the more readily modifiable a game is, the more commercially successful said game will be is a bit wide of the mark. Most people aren't as tuned in to the gaming/mod scene as we are - they still buy games though. Why ? </QUOTE>

Agreed, there's probably no direct correlation, but there is a market for customizability in games. I know because I'm a part of that market segment (I will buy <b>no</b> non-customizable games.) There are probably a lot of people who are more likely to buy a game that is customizable than a similar one that isn't. And there are quite a few people out there who don't care at all either way. I guess it all comes down to how big those numbers turn out to be in relation to each other.

If the people looking for games that can be edited are a small minority then isn't it about like asking, "Can today developers still allowed themself to ship out games without any support for Lunix?" (and yes, I meant L<b>u</b>n<b>i</b>x ;-)

But we don't have those numbers, so what's there to debate?<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#40 by "Flamethrower"
2000-05-14 17:19:06
flamey_at_evil@hotmail.com http://flamethrower.evilavatar.com
<b>#26</b> "Bucc" drivelled...

<QUOTE>I think it's quite rude to begin a new topic in this thread. If you don't like mine then go away and post to another thread</QUOTE>

What the fuck? The most purile, ill-researched, nil-points debating  fuckwit "topic" imaginable gets raised by a noddy with English as a second language and his Gwog-like Nazi Forum Bullying gets a "well said" from Andy? If Buccaneer can't be arsed to make a lively, interesting, topic full kudos to G-Man who at least <i>tried</i>.

<b>I'm beaming up, Scotty, let me know when we start to approach the planet Crap I know and love.</b>
#41 by "MoNo"
2000-05-14 17:19:24
monoton@online.no
lunix? isnt that the mutlitasking unix for the commie?<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#42 by "Dethstryk"
2000-05-14 19:40:04
dethstryk@damagegaming.com http://www.damagegaming.com/
<b>#36</b> "Steel" wrote...
<QUOTE>but who plays today SC single player?</QUOTE>

I recently started playing the game after almost a year of hiatus from it, and am playing through all six campaigns again. Does that count?


--
Dethstryk
Damage Gaming
#43 by "Bad_CRC"
2000-05-14 19:41:38
I can't imagine the quake series being so successful without the modification options it provided.

There are probably thousands of people who are still playing the game, playing only mods.


Of course games like Everquest seem to ruin this theory, but since I know nothing about those games, and have never played one,  I'm qualified to ignore them.

and I don't think you could customize deerhunter, though I doubt many people who bought that game would be in the same "geek" class as those of us who have written quake mods.


________________________________
<b>dumb·ass</b> <i>(Düm-èSS)</i> n. - Anyone who doesn't agree with me.
 
<a href="http://hammer.prohosting.com/~badcrc/Bad_CRC.gif"></a><I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#44 by "Vengeance[CoD]"
2000-05-14 20:33:16
rhiggi@home.com
<b>#18</b> "G-Man" wrote...
<quote>
Why reinvent the wheel for every new game?
</quote>
....
<QUOTE>number of engines will be available which will be so modular and flexible that they will never need to be entirely rewritten. And </QUOTE>


Not likely.  You could say the same thing about the Quake (or any other) engine a few years ago.  Everything stops at Q1 and we just produce "mods" of it (not so off topic afterall :p).  After all it will never get better than this.  Then someone releases a better engine and blows the gamers away and you've got another race to create a better engine with X cool feature and the Quake engine gets left behind.  Some people will still be playing quake mods (like now) and others will have moved on.  Basically things would be the same as they are now.

What leads you to conclude we will have one or a few "super" engine(s)?  You've knocked others for not carefully laying out thier ideas and backing them up, so what developements support your topic?  I see nothing but conjecture and "Imagine"ation on your part.  What if computers were implanted in our brain (it won't be long ya know) would we still have to worry about compatability.  Will we be able to play Q4 with one eye and check the news on the wireless web with the other? Please.

<quote>Imagine if you will that Monolith really made good on it's claim to having creating a gaming OS.
</quote>
I believe they call those consoles.

<quote>
Let's say they've released an engine that instead of licensing to developers they instead sell to the gamers themselves. They would support new hardware and technology via patches, and games utilizing the engine would carry markings like : Requires Lithtech v2.3 or higher.
</quote>
That would be vastly different from now, how?  Ohh the patches, of course, what was I thinking, we could always use another buggy OS and more patches.

I'd repeat all your comment to BuccAneeR but I'm tired of typing and want to play some Counter Strike.  Some people just shouldn't throw rocks.

btw: I'm mean too and I hate rude people who waste my time talking about the fantasy world "right around the corner" no matter what opsticals are in the way of said world.  If your going to talk shit, at least back it up.

Vengeance [anybody see the irony there? :-) ]




<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#45 by "G-Man"
2000-05-14 20:42:20
jonmars@earthlink.net http://www.shiftlock.org
<quote>If so, I propose that this thread be devoted to brainstorming new topics for discussion. Here is my submission:</quote>
You had a brainfart and missed this part maybe?

 - [g.man]
#46 by "Steel"
2000-05-14 21:31:26
Foogla@gmx.de
<B>#42 "Dethstryk" wrote: </B>
<QUOTE>I recently started playing the game after almost a year of hiatus from it, and am playing through all six campaigns again. Does that count?</QUOTE>

You quoted out of context. I was implying that (nearly) no one was using the Campaign Generator to make new Campaigns - (nearly) nobody is playing SC single player. Wich is a pity because there <I>are</I> cool single player campaigns.

Steel out
#47 by "PiRaMidA"
2000-05-14 21:41:56
piramida@usa.net http://www.agsm.net
<b>#34</b> "Serpwidgets" wrote...
<QUOTE>Do you think there would be so many good mods/levels/etc. out there if some people hadn't honed their skills with earlier games? Just think of it as an investment in your gaming future. :)</QUOTE>

Well, I've seen quite a lot of people doing maps for Quake1 (myself included), and the maps were honestly crap, comparing to the professional level. And I also have been honored to know some truly professional mappers who found out their talent doing maps for Quake1. What I am trying to say is that they would be still doing maps if the only map editor would be QERadiant, which is by far the most arcane map editor out there. Worldcraft and the likes just increased the number of crappy maps, which may be were not going far, but they were obscuring the really good ones (have you seen all this map review sites in Quake1 days? They had dozens of submissions per day, and they all have finally closed down because of this insane input from community).

This is a hrd question, but I have been in contact with lots of game mod developers and I became pretty confident that the only people who were doing right stuff were the ones who were actually professional; people who were doing maps without really knowing what they were doing never ever created something worth looking at. Just my opinion, which has formed over three years of working with game mod community.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#48 by "Vengeance[CoD]"
2000-05-14 21:49:21
rhiggi@home.com
<b>#45</b> "G-Man" wrote...
<QUOTE>If so, I propose that this thread be devoted to brainstorming new topics for discussion. Here is my submission:

You had a brainfart and missed this part maybe?

- [g.man] </QUOTE>

I didn't miss anything.  You talked all kinds of shit about how someone else couldn't put up even a half assed topic then purposed to do it yourself.  

<quote>
Is it just me or have the quality of topics/threads on PC been going downhill? I mean I know it has only recently been back after nearly a year long hiatus, and I'm thankful for it. Honestly I am, but the last few threads didn't seem to have had much thought behind them, but were rushed out the door simply to provide a new forum for discussion.
</quote>

Thats exactly what you just did.  You rushed out a half ass idea with no or little thought behind it.  You missed some grammatical mistakes to boot.  I don't have a problem with that, or with topics that aren't exactly polarizing (we bassically all agree).  I just think its funny for you to criticise someone else and then turn around and make the exact same "mistakes".  You can add to the discussion with out being rude.  There are plenty of other topics if you dont want to comment on this one or you could try to send in your own.  On the other hand if some 12 year old wants to make an ass out of hisself where adults are trying to have an intelligent conversation (yes I do realise how funny that statement is), I'm more than happy to point out any mistakes he made. :p

V




<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#49 by "Serpwidgets"
2000-05-14 22:26:18
serpwidgets@hotmail.com http://people.ce.mediaone.net/serpwidgets/index.ht
<b>#47</b> "PiRaMidA" wrote...
<QUOTE>This is a hrd question, but I have been in contact with lots of game mod developers and I became pretty confident that the only people who were doing right stuff were the ones who were actually professional; people who were doing maps without really knowing what they were doing never ever created something worth looking at. Just my opinion, which has formed over three years of working with game mod community.</QUOTE>

On the map end, I agree for the most part. Seems like the biggest problem was a lack of discretion when deciding what to submit and what to keep to yourself.

But mods are a different story. I've made several UT mutators myself, and I'm pretty sure that the majority of the muts I've used for UT have been made by someone other than pros. OTOH, almost every one of the mods for Quake1 sucked ass, not because of a lack of pros out there, but because QC was so much of a PITA and so limited in what it could do.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#50 by "PiRaMidA"
2000-05-14 22:29:46
piramida@usa.net http://www.agsm.net
<b>#49</b> "Serpwidgets" wrote...
<QUOTE>OTOH, almost every one of the mods for Quake1 sucked ass, not because of a lack of pros out there, but because QC was so much of a PITA and so limited in what it could do.</QUOTE>

Well, it still was a base for original CTF, TF, QRally, AirQuake, and tons of other great mods I can't think of now. Many of them, by the way, were carried over to the next generation engines with much more extensibility and for the most part all of them sucked in their second incarnation. Why's that? :)<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
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