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All the fun of the Pharaoh
January 23rd 2001, 06:56 CET by Andy

With all this talk lately of poor quality and/or too many screenshots putting people off buying a game, I thought I'd offer this perspective...

Very rarely will I buy a game as soon as it comes out. Usually I'll leave it a while, and then get it when it's out on budget or if a decent add-on comes out and I can get the two-pack for a knockdown price.

One game that I've had jotted down in my mental notebook for a while is Pharaoh, which can probably be best summed up as Age of Empires set in Egypt. I'd all but forgotten about it until today, when I noticed an item on Blue's News that mentioned an expansion pack I hadn't heard of, even though it has been out for ages -- Cleopatra: Queen of the Nile. Clickety click, off to read more about it.

It sounds like a great add-on, certainly worth buying the original game for. Reading the list of features really fired my imagination, especially this bit: "Magnificant monuments, including the Colossi of Ramses II, the Tombs in the Valley of the Kings and the Library and Lighthouse at Alexandria."

Great, I love stuff like that. I like Quake because I'm into castles, and on the same superficial level I'm into Egyptian stuff too, so this was starting to sound like a must-buy.

And then I clicked on the screenshots page. Oh dear. Six screenshots, presumably taken by people who are trying to sell the game, and they just lost a sale.

I'd suggest you don't click any of these links if you're thinking of buying it, but by the time I'd seen the Library of Alexandria, the Colossi of Ramses and the Pharos Lighthouse, it was too late for me. Why buy a game when I've already seen the cool stuff I would have been buying it for?
C O M M E N T S
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#1 by "paul"
2001-01-23 06:57:56
pbullman@webhitzone.com
first!
#2 by "szcx"
2001-01-23 07:01:05
nedocze@hotmail.com
geeze, fickle much?
#3 by "wabut"
2001-01-23 07:02:52
wabut@yahoo.com
Isn't the fun not in seeing the buildings, but being able to drop a nuke on really cool buildings to see their really cool remains?
#4 by "SteveBauman"
2001-01-23 07:03:19
steve@manic-pop-thrills.com
Why buy a game when I've already seen the cool stuff I would have been buying it for?

Um, maybe because you play a game as opposed to watching still pictures?

By the way, the game is nothing like Age of Empires; it's more like SimCity.
#5 by "the_reformed_pianist"
2001-01-23 07:11:52
pianist@canada.com
5th!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
#6 by "Quicken"
2001-01-23 07:12:43
geoffrey@access.com.au
It's a great game. I've played it and I've got a couple of friends who play it. You design the city (as Steve said, sim city style) and even have to make preperations for war. The missions are well laid out and there's something satisfying about making a grand city with something like the lighthouse as a focal point in it. Those screenshots are great and in no way spoil what is a very entertaining game. If all you wanted was to see these monuments then you're really not going to enjoy the game.

Give it up Andy
#7 by "EvilivE"
2001-01-23 07:17:23
satanas@worldmailer.com
Pharoah actually is cool.  As Steve pointed out, it is very similar to SimCity, and nothing like Age of Empires.

Trying to bury the mess you made Andy?
#8 by "SteveBauman"
2001-01-23 07:19:19
steve@manic-pop-thrills.com
So if they didn' t show those monuments on their screenshot page, would we have an article claiming they were hiding them from the public?
#9 by "Hambone"
2001-01-23 07:37:43
Cosmando@homestead.com
Extra! Extra! Andrew Smith is an admitted cheap bastard and a arab-hating racist.
Trust me, I read it on PlanetCrap.
#10 by "Quicken"
2001-01-23 07:50:21
geoffrey@access.com.au
Heh heh. Andrew Smith admits nothing. That's a fabrication Hambone and you know it! ;)
#11 by "CreoleNed"
2001-01-23 08:12:07
cned@telus.net
Yes, Steve, of course. How silly of you to ask.
#12 by "AshRain"
2001-01-23 08:42:01
ikhier@wish.net
Who cares about screenshots? Screenshots show nothing of the gameplay.
And to dismiss an expansion just because of screenshots??? *shivers*

Screenshots suck m'kay?
#13 by "Monkey_Butler"
2001-01-23 09:23:44
wash@sirius.com
So Andy, do you not go see a film if you see to many pictures from it ahead of time?
#14 by "Napoleon"
2001-01-23 10:24:15
nap@softhome.net
Oh come on Andy. The fun is not gone when you have seen how these things look, the fun is to actually be so good at the game that you can build them yourself. Especially in these kind of games it doesn't matter that they showed these screenshots.

I remember some nasty letters to a UK gaming mag when they published a screenshot of the End-boss of Heretic in their mag. Now that's nasty, because part of the fun is actually seeing what the designers cooked up as an end-boss. But with Pharaoh the fun is to expand your empire far enough to be able to support these buildings.

God Andy, try to think before you post a topic, allright?
#15 by "Linguica"
2001-01-23 10:24:45
linguica@doomworld.com
I think all the anti-Andy activists have just found themselves a way to get Andy to quit computer gaming forever!

Just e-mail him links every so often saying that they show some grand new injustice related to computer games or the internet somehow, but have them really link to a page with a big load of screenshots from any game Andy might be thinking of buying.  Then he'll see the screenshots showing off the games' cool parts, and immediately not want to actually play the game anymore!

If we can pre-emptively strike every time before he buys a game, we can effectively stop him from ever buying another computer game and thus not writing about any of them!
#16 by "Hekcorps_HEK"
2001-01-23 15:50:03
hekcorps@hotmail.com
The topic I want to cover in this letter is big and complex, and I don't have much in the way of scientific data on it. Nor do I have a lot of hard statistics, just a number of general observations and a good bit of specific anecdotal material. Let me begin by saying that there are few certainties in life. I have counted only three: death, taxes, and Andy Smith doing some condescending thing every few weeks. While most acts of blackguardism are committed not by dissolute vermin, but by Andy's adulators in an attempt to "solve" all our problems by talking them to death, he believes that there is an international Communist conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids. That's just wrong. He further believes that university professors must conform their theses and conclusions to his unrestrained prejudices if they want to publish papers and advance their careers. Wrong again!

This is not Nazi Germany or Soviet Russia, where the state would be eager to divert us from proclaiming what in our innermost conviction is absolutely necessary. Not yet, at least. But in asserting that he holds a universal license that allows him to turn peaceful gatherings into embarrassing scandals, he demonstrates an astounding narrowness of vision. The outcome of the struggle will ultimately be decided based on the number and influence of people fully informed about Andy's snow jobs, committed to Andy's defeat, and organized under sound leadership. Sounds pretty materialistic, doesn't it? But is it any more so than Andy's sexist perverted blanket statements?

Need I point out that it's been well documented that scores of people, just like you, have finally decided that they've had enough of Andy's philosophies? Grungy filthy-types (like Andy) are not born -- they are excreted. However unsavory that metaphor may be, interventionism is not merely an attack on our moral fiber. It is also a politically motivated attack on knowledge. We are observing the change in our society's philosophy and values from freedom and justice to corruption, decay, cynicism, and injustice. All of these "values" are artistically incorporated in one person: Andy Smith. If it weren't for out-of-touch common blood-stained criminals, he would have no friends. Let me leave you with one last thought: Andy Smith frequently takes an accepted moral principle, adopts it as his own, and then accuses mainstream society of violating that principle.

Andy's new homepage
#17 by "Greg"
2001-01-23 16:23:53
greg417@worldnet.att.net
Andy, does your comment mean, that after building each one of those monuments once, you would quit playing the game? I would hope not. Sure, it may be disappointing they posted pictures of the monuments. But did they reveal what part they play in the game? What special abilities they grant? If they actually are more than just space wasters, your decision not to buy the game is sadly premature.

I'll give you an example. From Age of Empires II. Just because I saw a Wonder in a screenshot, I didn't decide not to buy the game. Age of Empires II is much more than Wonders. You can play for hours without ever seeing a Wonder. And when someone builds a Wonder, the people don't just admire it for its pretty picture. They are all after the Wonder to destroy it, or else they might lose the game.

Greg
#18 by "deadlock"
2001-01-23 17:39:55
deadlock@eircom.net
Are you blokes on fucking drugs ? Andy was being sarcastic.

Fucking hell...

deadlock
#19 by "Greenbean"
2001-01-23 17:41:12
john@playerofgames.com
There seems to be an awfully popular non-topical backlash against Andy on this page. Let it go - you're not being cool in "joining in with the other kids" and abusing Andy. Comment on the article but the Andy bashing is over.

With regards to the article, pharoah is good fun no matter how many times you see or build the monuments - judging the game on the screenshots in this case is totally irrelevant. Ceasar, its predecessor, is one of the few games that I keep going back to time after time.
#20 by "dukope"
2001-01-23 18:11:42
pope@jeffsys.net
i gotta say, this article is a fantastic way to prove a point. it only works because A) people always disagree with what andy writes, and B) well disguised sarcasm is difficult to pick up on..
#21 by "_brennan_"
2001-01-23 18:29:16
homerjs50@hotmail.com
Yes, this article is a fantastic way to prove a point.  It's also a fantastic way for Andy to use PlanetCrap for his personal vendetta against 3D Realms.  Again.

Had Andy taken the text of this article and used it as a post in the "Less Gaming = More Aggression," he would have proven his point reasonably well, and likely some people would have agreed with him.  Instead, he decided to libel 3DR on the Register and post this idea as a topic a few days later.  So now rather than proving a point in the context of an argument, he's whining yet again about how misunderstood he is, and how evil 3DR is.  He's doing it in a more subtle way than usual, but the subtext is the same.

So Morn, how long are you going to let Andy use your site to whack himself off?<i><b></b></i><i></i><i></i>
#22 by "WarrenMarshall"
2001-01-23 19:13:29
warren@epicgames.com
Greenbean (#19):
There seems to be an awfully popular non-topical backlash against Andy on this page. Let it go - you're not being cool in "joining in with the other kids" and abusing Andy. Comment on the article but the Andy bashing is over.

As far as I'm concerned, it's not over until he acknowledges that he fucked up and apologizes to George.  Otherwise, this is how he'll handle everything in the future ... commit some huge fuck up, then just stop posting in the threads until it blows over.

If that's what you want to see, fine ... but I don't.

---

Warren Marshall
Level Designer/Programmer/Corporate Shill
Epic Games (www.epicgames.com)<i><b></b></i><i></i><i></i>
#23 by "CreoleNed"
2001-01-23 19:54:39
cned@telus.net
Greenbean, you presume an awful lot to state the Andy bashing is over. :)

And I agree, this topic, whatever its intent is or was, seems to be nothing more than a kind of public masturbation. Surely there are better stories waiting to be posted? And yes, Warren, I actually *am* working on my own story for submission, if for no other reason than to deny people the chance to tell me to "put up or shut up!" :P

I'm curious to hear what Morn thinks of Andy using stuff posted on PC on sites like The Register, especially when Andy does so in a manner that misrepresents facts. Ulitmately, the content of PC is Morn's responsibility and he has given Andy the keys to the kingdom, so to speak.

You know, no matter how many revisions this site goes through, it always ends up being Andy vs. The World. If that guy's ego isn't bursting at the seams by now, I don't think it ever will. And I help contribute to the process. *sigh*
#24 by "CharlieWiederhold"
2001-01-23 21:09:57
charliew@3drealms.com
Guys, consider yourselves duped.

I'm gonna go roll my eyes at this wall over here.

Charlie Wiederhold
#25 by "Skeptopotamus"
2001-01-23 21:31:52
gfm@yahoo.com
Maybe George should apologize as well, for being a pompous asshole that thinks he knows what is best for the gaming public to see, or not to see, on the web.
#26 by "BabiG"
2001-01-23 21:37:48
yankeebabu@india.com
Good lord, there've been plenty of worse things done in journalism...by having all this "outrage" at something stupid like this, you're simply giving it more importance then it deserves. Andy started a bad rumor. Bad Andy. Get over it now...

This is just like all the other false rumors floating around...yet I bet Sega's ranking officers don't go asking around for "support" in this "time of need" everytime a rumor flys around that they're going bankrupt or bought out (and that's a *lot* of times). You issue a denial, spread it around and fugedaboutit. Those rumors probably start from a flippant remark by some middle manager too, taken completely out of context, only thing is we don't know the name of the rumor mill in these cases.

Besides, it's -true- that 3drealms was considering somehow limiting screenshots after all, unless we have some imposter registered as George. Andy jumped to conclusions, jumped *way* out there, but its not as if there isn't any basis to it. For this his popularity drops below the level of serial killers (and in gaming circles, serial killers seem to be disturbingly popular, if my matches of cstrike are any indication).
#27 by "funkdrunk"
2001-01-23 21:52:55
jflavius@bellatlantic.net
<b>Skeptopotamus</b> (#25)


"Maybe George should apologize as well, for being a pompous asshole that thinks he knows what is best for the gaming public to see, or not to see, on the web."


Maybe George should write an misleading article about Andy, submit it to the Register, and send Andy around various web sites defending himself.

<i><b></b></i><i></i><i></i>
#28 by "Monkey_Butler"
2001-01-23 23:25:01
wash@sirius.com
Guys, consider yourselves duped.


Maybe, but I don't think anyone should feel duped....afterall, it's not far removed from run-of-the-mill Andy logic anyway.
#29 by "Greenbean"
2001-01-24 00:14:51
john@playerofgames.com
I'm not saying I still don't dislike Andy, for what he did - and I'm not all for letting him away with it, this will float up every so often in his future career - the issue of trust, but I'm not impressed with people blindly shouting hate at someone because its popular. Thats just bullying.
#30 by "gimper"
2001-01-24 00:23:22
jeremyj@impactimaging.com
I'll give Andy one bit of praise, if he didn't give us stories we would only talk about something new once or twice a month on Planetcrap.
#31 by "Narcopolo"
2001-01-24 01:51:32
ncalton@yahoo.com
Greenbean #29
I'm not impressed with people blindly shouting hate at someone because its popular. Thats just bullying.


I could agree with you if that was what was happening, but people are fed up and demanding answers.

Morn, what's going on?  There are five submitted stories pending.  Meanwhile Andy is dodging all of us, submitting stories and I suppose activating them himself.  I expect some people just want things to go back to the way they were, but now we know that things aren't even what we thought they were.

Maybe those submitted topics aren't "front page worthy" material, I dunno, I can't read them, but christ, is this one possibly so insightful it had to precede them?

Andy seems to be really and truly trying to bury the issues.  The more people respond to the "topic", really just the main post, the more people are going to cop out of defending Planetcrap the way we want it to be: a place where people can talk unguardedly, and even talk shit, about their thoughts and even their game related jobs.

Warren Marshall, #22:
As far as I'm concerned, it's not over until he acknowledges that he fucked up and apologizes to George. Otherwise, this is how he'll handle everything in the future ... commit some huge fuck up, then just stop posting in the threads until it blows over.

If that's what you want to see, fine ... but I don't.


Exactly.<i><b></b></i><i></i><i></i>
#32 by "BloodKnight"
2001-01-24 03:30:57
bloodknight@somethingawful.com
<b>Napoleon</b> (#14):
<quote>I remember some nasty letters to a UK gaming mag when they published a screenshot of the End-boss of Heretic in their mag. </quote>

Are you sure it wasn't heretic 2 on pc gamer?  I still have that issue somewhere..
<i><b></b></i><i></i><i></i>
#33 by "None1a"
2001-01-24 03:33:00
none1a@home.com
<b>BloodKnight</b> (#32):
<quote>Are you sure it wasn't heretic 2 on pc gamer? I still have that issue somewhere..
</quote>

I remember that one, however that was kind of a non-issue. The image showed up in a walkthrough not in the reivew (if you didn't want any thing spoiled why the hell would you read a walkthough?)<i><b></b></i><i></i><i></i>
#34 by "Desiato"
2001-01-24 03:38:57
desiato_hotblack@hotmail.com
Gimper -- yeah, sure....that's what we need - someone to *stir* the crap. Nope, I have to disagree with you, we'd be talking about something more _relevant_ if his sensationalist articles were no longer the mainstay of this site.

Don't you love how Andy lays a big smelly turd of an article, then scampers off to lurk and watch everything happen. I know he's monitoring it -- hell, I even saw him hit my website for the quick picture I posted there....it's just some kind of voyeur behavior or something. Unfathomable.

Some people take issue that we bring up Andy within a thread. Well - why the *fuck* not. He's the instigator, so therefore we discuss. Not that the ultimate outcome will result in him changing his behavior -- witness the story in the Register -- altered slightly at the demand of reality, but hardly a whimper from the "author" about the correction.

Oh - and someone said (this thread? Oh whatever) that Andy's articles are sometimes spot-on....well to that I say...

If you took one million monkeys and put them in front of a million typewriters, you'd eventually get the works of Shakespear.

In the case of Andy's articles, five monkeys - five minutes.

Desiato
#35 by "None1a"
2001-01-24 03:49:13
none1a@home.com
<b>Desiato</b> (#34):
<quote>Some people take issue that we bring up Andy within a thread. Well - why the *fuck* not. He's the instigator, so therefore we discuss. Not that the ultimate outcome will result in him changing his behavior -- witness the story in the Register -- altered slightly at the demand of reality, but hardly a whimper from the "author" about the correction.</quote>

It's not really the andy slaming that gets to me, it the lets slame andy with out reading the article. Sure this one's not right but come on their's very little wrong with the daily radar topic, yet people slamed him for it. And take a look at Morn's latest topic, isn't so funny how ham desided it be a good idea to try takeing the andy slaming their as well, O wait no it's not.

At the very least some people could try to find something wrong with the current topic and STFU when their's not (you can resume the andy bashing after the discussion has treaded off topic). <i><b></b></i><i></i><i></i>
#36 by "Desiato"
2001-01-24 04:00:21
desiato_hotblack@hotmail.com
<b>None1a</b> (#35):
<quote>It's not really the andy slaming that gets to me, it the lets slame andy with out reading the article. Sure this one's not right but come on their's very little wrong with the daily radar topic, yet people slamed him for it. And take a look at Morn's latest topic, isn't so funny how ham desided it be a good idea to try takeing the andy slaming their as well, O wait no it's not.
</quote>

It's possible that the built up frustration and bile that is displayed here would diminish somewhat if Andy was a rational person and actually followed some kind of conventional logic when engaging people in a public forum.

However that hasn't happened, so you can pretty much blame him for not handling it correctly, and causing most of the posts here to be flooded with the same questions that he dodges time and time again.

When you have no answer, you just repeat yourself until the other party acknowledges your stance. That is all you are witnessing here.


Desiato
#37 by "None1a"
2001-01-24 04:08:43
none1a@home.com
<b>Desiato</b> (#36):
<quote>When you have no answer, you just repeat yourself until the other party acknowledges your stance. That is all you are witnessing here.</quote>

Ture but how many times to you see a person asking the question to a empty office? If say people waited untill andy posted a reply in the current topic I wouldn't have a major problem with it (hey look their's andy lets ask him now). But come on nobody expects an answer, so why continue to post in every topic the same thing?

Do like my dad taught me long ago, wait untill they think you've forgoten about it to get them back. <i><b></b></i><i></i><i></i>
#38 by "Desiato"
2001-01-24 04:15:18
desiato_hotblack@hotmail.com
<b>None1a</b> (#37):
<quote><B>Desiato</B> (#36):

<quote>When you have no answer, you just repeat yourself until the other party acknowledges your stance. That is all you are witnessing here.</quote>

Ture but how many times to you see a person asking the question to a empty office? If say people waited untill andy posted a reply in the current topic I wouldn't have a major problem with it (hey look their's andy lets ask him now). But come on nobody expects an answer, so why continue to post in every topic the same thing?

Do like my dad taught me long ago, wait untill they think you've forgoten about it to get them back. </quote>

If you're equating Andy's head to an empty office, then I have to congratulate you.

I think that would explain everything.

Desiato
#39 by "Narcopolo"
2001-01-24 04:17:15
ncalton@yahoo.com
None1a, in #37:
Ture but how many times to you see a person asking the question to a empty office? If say people waited untill andy posted a reply in the current topic I wouldn't have a major problem with it (hey look their's andy lets ask him now). But come on nobody expects an answer, so why continue to post in every topic the same thing?

Do like my dad taught me long ago, wait untill they think you've forgoten about it to get them back.


No dice man, it's more than just a stance demanding acknowledgement.  It's the question of whether or not this place is worth caring about.  There's definitely an attempt by Andy to  steer the conversation here away from the issue that people care most about right now, and that's his using this site against someone he has it in for.

It's not going to go away unless people let Andy win.  I didn't see why the 3DR devs stuck around after all the times that Andy would slam them, I thought it was for damage control and to pre-empt him from going off on a dangerous tear.  Now I think after reading their posts for a long time that it's because they care about gaming, and having a sometimes elevated discussion about it with some like minded people. It's that exact thing that I think we have to hold Andy accountable for, not for 3D Realms' sake, but for all of ours.<i><b></b></i><i></i><i></i>
#40 by "None1a"
2001-01-24 04:23:21
none1a@home.com
<b>Desiato</b> (#38):
<quote>If you're equating Andy's head to an empty office, then I have to congratulate you.
</quote>

No I'm saying your not going to get a responce eather way.

<b>Narcopolo</b> (#39):
<quote>It's not going to go away unless people let Andy win. I didn't see why the 3DR devs stuck around after all the times that Andy would slam them, I thought it was for damage control and to pre-empt him from going off on a dangerous tear. </quote>

So let him think he's one, once he startes posting again and becomes active again then do it. As long as people continue to turn every thing into the same issuse nothing going to change from how it is right now. Andy's not going away, he's not changeing his mind, he's not responding to any of this, why continue to take the rest of the site down with it? <i><b></b></i><i></i><i></i>
#41 by "CharlieWiederhold"
2001-01-24 04:25:21
charliew@3drealms.com
There's definitely an attempt by Andy to steer the conversation here away from the issue that people care most about right now, and that's his using this site against someone he has it in for.


I have no problems with quotes from here being used in news stories. This *is* a public forum so everyone who posts here has to be prepared for that sort of stuff happening from time to time. Sure, mabye it's asshole-ish of him to do that, but this *is* Andy we are talking about... always be prepared for the worst when discussing things with him, whether they are lawsuits against yourself or an article. Besides, a lot of us are assholes in here, we just express ourselves differently. :)

What was such a big deal about the most recent one, was blatant problems within the article. The article in the current form it is in is fine, even if it is still annoying.

Charlie Wiederhold
#42 by "Narcopolo"
2001-01-24 04:35:05
ncalton@yahoo.com
Hmm, OK then Mr. Wiederhold, I have a question for you.

What do you think is the appropriate response of the people here to the article?  OK, lots of questions.  Why do you continue to post here?  What do you think the future of the site is if the Register article issue doesn't get addressed by Andy?  And how would you ideally like this site to operate in regards to discussing games/gaming?

I'll cut myself off with those. : ) Not to put you on the spot, or anything...<i><b></b></i><i></i><i></i>
#43 by "CharlieWiederhold"
2001-01-24 04:52:01
charliew@3drealms.com
What do you think is the appropriate response of the people here to the article?


Whatever you want. You'll be judged based on your reaction just like Andy is being judged based on his actions.

Why do you continue to post here?


When was the last time you saw me be very active here. :) I've lost my taste for a lot of what I used to come here for so in general I just tend to offer little sound bite comments here and there, and then go look at Lesbotard. And yes, Andy is the reason I lost my taste for coming here. That's my response.

What do you think the future of the site is if the Register article issue doesn't get addressed by Andy?


No idea, and I really don't care much anymore. I mentioned to George the moment it happened that I felt The Register was where most of the focus should have been given. Yeah, Andy wrote it but they published it. Oh, I also called him a pig fucker and said I was going to get a character in the game, give him a tagname of Andy, and have him fucking a pig, but that was merely my opinion... not the official stance of 3D Realms. *shrug*

Feeling that "what is said here *should* stay here" is much different from "what is said here *must* stay here".

And how would you ideally like this site to operate in regards to discussing games/gaming?


I think it should handle itself. When people get sick of it they make up their own minds what they want to do. This page has been through several of these ups and downs. It'll continue to do that until Morn decides to trash it.

I rarely get very involved anymore because it simply wasn't worth it anymore. Sure, it was good to get Andy to admit he was wrong a couple of times to clear the air, but the fight simply wasn't worth. Rarely do any of the other discussions grab my attention soo... I just toss in my comments about cute teenage chicks and move on.

Charlie Wiederhold
#44 by "Narcopolo"
2001-01-24 04:57:40
ncalton@yahoo.com
Fair enough.  I suppose I might be idealizing things a bit.  I'd like most for you to feel like you could be comfortable here and free to post as I am, but clearly that's not going to be possible.  I was hoping that there would be a still bigger response from other people, but I guess people are kind of jaded.

I might end up following your lead and just check in on Lesbotard too.<i><b></b></i><i></i><i></i>
#45 by "funkdrunk"
2001-01-24 05:27:46
jflavius@bellatlantic.net
<b>Charlie Wiederhold</b> (#43):

<quote>When was the last time you saw me be very active here. :) I've lost my taste for a lot of what I used to come here for so in general I just tend to offer little sound bite comments here and there, and then go look at Lesbotard. And yes, Andy is the reason I lost my taste for coming here. That's my response.
</quote>

AND

<quote>I rarely get very involved anymore because it simply wasn't worth it anymore. Sure, it was good to get Andy to admit he was wrong a couple of times to clear the air, but the fight simply wasn't worth. Rarely do any of the other discussions grab my attention soo... I just toss in my comments about cute teenage chicks and move on.
</quote>

Am I the only one saddened by this?  When I started lurking on Planet Crap a while ago it was, to me, everything I as a long time gamer wanted (and I am a long time gamer.  I had pong as a unit that you plugged into a TV by itself, circa 1975 or so).  I tried to write computer games, and found they were much more difficult than anyone believes them to be.  As a result I've always thought of game developers of having special talents.  Good games or bad games these were guys that could do it.  And Planet Crap was a place where I could find these guys not only discussing their decisions with gamers, but in general bs'ing with us.  Sure these places were also in usenet, but you had to search for them, and if you left for a while, the good discussions could move to another forum, and you'd have to go searching again.  The thought that developers may decide to not frequent this place is what has dragged me out from my lurkers cave to comment.  

I've spent several thousands of dollars over 16 years on games for the computer (first computer game was Boulder Dash for the c64), and I've only asked to be entertained for my money.  And I have been.  So to the developers who look at this forum, and feel that there are people who bash you guys for no reason, and asses who mis quote you, and web sites devoted to your destruction, and fools that bark with glee when another development house closes, and give you a general sense of no respect, to you developers, please keep up the good work.  You keep making them, I'll keep playing them.


<i><b></b></i><i></i><i></i>
#46 by "funkdrunk"
2001-01-24 05:35:00
jflavius@bellatlantic.net
#45

Damn, it wasn't my intention to sound so sappy...<i><b></b></i><i></i><i></i>
#47 by "Narcopolo"
2001-01-24 05:44:15
ncalton@yahoo.com
funkdrunk in #45 in response to Mr. Wiederhold's comments:

Am I the only one saddened by this?


Not at all.  I'm depressed.  

The nature of things here I think more and more is that Planetcrap is very much what Andy makes of it, since he's empowered to do it, and with some consistency he's been making it unprintable.

It's kind of funny, but now I feel almost morally obligated to buy Duke Nukem Forever, and I didn't even want it before.

If anyone feels any solidarity, not on the depression bit, but on the issue that Planetcrap has got to be allowed to grow bigger than Andy, please speak up.  This seems like as good a thread as any to turn into the PCers on strike thread, or something.  Not a strike against posting, but about rising up against the man!  

I've been reading PC for what feels like a long time now, since version 2.0, about a month or two before Darkseid and that other guy scared the crap out of that kid Ramtin.  I remember staying up to about 5 in the morning following that thread, wondering if anything serious was going to happen.  But I didn't think before I could be unhappy with coming here.

If no one agrees, I'll just get back to my real life, and leave Andy to piss in the sandbox.
<i><b></b></i><i></i><i></i>
#48 by "GeorgeBroussard"
2001-01-24 06:05:50
georgeb@3drealms.com
Now I think after reading their posts for a long time that it's because they care about gaming, and having a sometimes elevated discussion about it with some like minded people.


After Andy's recent tactics I decided that I won't be around to see future ones.  Yup, it's a public forum and I KNOW that my words are always at risk (even in emails).  Fine.  But I don't expect to be backstabbed bya guy I semi-"know" after a year here and hundreds of discussions.  Andy crossed the line and you're gonna lose a developer's voice for it.  There are other places to talk.

I think Andy helped PC a lot.  I also think he hurt it a lot.  There are other people that can/will post articles (Marshall, Apache, Bauman - step up).  You need sensationalist stuff because it generates discussion.  You need a bad guy to argue the unpopular side.  But what Andy did was betrayal in my mind and I won't be here to see it happen again.

Fool me once, shame on you.  Fool me twice, shame on me.

There is good discussion to be had here and there are good people here.  Long live PC...but Andy can rot in Hell.
#49 by "Quicken"
2001-01-24 06:06:43
geoffrey@access.com.au

If anyone feels any solidarity, not on the depression bit, but on the issue that Planetcrap has got to be allowed to grow bigger than Andy, please speak up.


Yeah. Seems like PC is too reliant on Andy in recent months. There's no a total of 6 pending stories so who's checking them to see if they're fit for comment? Most are probably too old for comment anyway but there must be at least one or two worth talking about. But then I've said most of this before
#50 by "WarrenMarshall"
2001-01-24 07:29:10
warren@epicgames.com
Greenbean (#29):
I'm not saying I still don't dislike Andy, for what he did - and I'm not all for letting him away with it, this will float up every so often in his future career - the issue of trust, but I'm not impressed with people blindly shouting hate at someone because its popular. Thats just bullying.

It might be nice if Andy came down from his mountain top and spoke to the people here about what happened.  As it is, it comes off as "I'm too good to speak to you filthy heathens, so I'll just ignore you.  You wouldn't understand what I said anyway."

I'm sure that pisses many people off just as much as the original article did.

---

Warren Marshall
Level Designer/Programmer/Corporate Shill
Epic Games (www.epicgames.com)<i><b></b></i><i></i><i></i>
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