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Less gaming = less aggression
January 15th 2001, 15:45 CET by Andy

This BBC story reports on research by Stanford University into the effects of computer games and television on children. The report is based on two groups of children studied over a six month period, and shows that the less video games and TV they were exposed to, the less aggressive they became.

In one school, 105 children were given advice on how to cut down on TV and games, and used an "electronic television time manager". In another school, the 120 children that were studied weren't given any measures to reduce their use of TV and games.

At the end of the six months, children at both schools were asked to assess how aggressive their classmates were. At the school where gaming and TV viewing had been reduced, there was a "statistically significant" drop in aggression levels.

But of course, this is all rubbish. Developers tell us that games don't make people aggressive and they know better than a bunch of those whacky academic folk, don't they?
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#178 by "GeorgeBroussard"
2001-01-18 05:54:25
georgeb@3drealms.com
Andy,

What do you mean? You would stop people using screenshots?


No, not shots specifically...that'd be silly.  Although someone needs to sue someone over Tribes 2 shots :)

We'll see why Nintendo is doing this over time I suppose...but I know that we do not like unofficial strategy guides that come out and try to profit off your work.  I agree 10000% with beating that down.  Screenshots in reviews...that's silly.

But I also don't like reviewers taking shitass ugly shots and using them in reviews.  Use the official ones.
#179 by "GeorgeBroussard"
2001-01-18 05:55:53
georgeb@3drealms.com
None,

So no guides for D4 then.


No, just official ones (in print).  As for online guides..I don't think we'd really care.  Why stop that stuff?  It helps game sales.  As long as they aren't doing an entire 200 pg hint book online that is...then that cuts into your book sales.
#180 by "Andy"
2001-01-18 06:00:05
andy@meejahor.com
<b>GeorgeBroussard</b> (#178):
<quote>
but I know that we do not like unofficial strategy guides that come out and try to profit off your work. I agree 10000% with beating that down.
</quote>
Well I'd go along with that, but if you listen carefully you can hear the sound of Hulka beating a path to your door...

It's another one of those weird situations though. Yes, you can say that using screenshots in a strategy guide is profiting from your work, so the guides should be stopped. But what about, say, books on modern architecture? Those use photos of buildings and I'll bet you the architects and builders don't see a penny from the sales of the book. What's the difference?
#181 by "WarrenMarshall"
2001-01-18 06:06:05
warren@epicgames.com
GeorgeBroussard (#178):
No, not shots specifically...that'd be silly. Although someone needs to sue someone over Tribes 2 shots :)

Here here!  :)

---

Warren Marshall
Level Designer/Programmer/Corporate Shill
Epic Games (www.epicgames.com)<i><b></b></i><i></i><i></i>
#182 by "GeorgeBroussard"
2001-01-18 06:07:36
georgeb@3drealms.com
Well I'd go along with that, but if you listen carefully you can hear the sound of Hulka beating a path to your door...


Yup and as much as I like him (he even wrote the Terminal Velocity hint guide) - I don't like the fact that people profit from our work.  It's a lot like people getting rich of Quake on web sites in the old days.  Sure it was good for the community, but you know deep down it bothers id that Blue made hundreds of thousands off id's work.  Blue started as a pure Quake site.  He's a legit news site now, after growing, but the roots man :)

It's another one of those weird situations though. Yes, you can say that using screenshots in a strategy guide is profiting from your work, so the guides should be stopped. But what about, say, books on modern architecture? Those use photos of buildings and I'll bet you the architects and builders don't see a penny from the sales of the book. What's the difference?


Gotta be some legal difference.  Don't ask me.  Maybe buildings are part of the public domain or something by their very nature.  A game is different.

But it's the same with unauthorized biographies of famous people.  Gotta be a loophole or else none of them would exist would they?  Maybe Nintendo will get beat down.  Maybe they just wanna force DR to spend money defending the suit...maybe they will back out later and laugh as costing them 100K?  Who knows.
#183 by "Andy"
2001-01-18 06:08:06
andy@meejahor.com
Seeing as I've got CrapSpy loaded, a question to the group...

Today I figured out how to do something clever in HTML. It's one of the holy grails of web design, a standard element of print design and something that should, in theory, be easy. I've seen it attempted with varying degrees of success hundreds of times before, everywhere from Geocities to big corporate sites, but until now I don't think anyone has done it properly. Well now I have. It works perfectly, in all the browsers I've tested it in, and it is *incredibly* easy. Easy, as in, "why didn't I think of this four years ago when I first wanted to do it, how could I have been so stupid?". Anyone who has ever wanted to do it will kick themselves when they find out.

So... should I patent it?

(I'm not really thinking of patenting it, it's just a hypothetical.)
#184 by "Apache"
2001-01-18 06:08:29
apache@stomped.com
george broussard wrote:

But I also don't like reviewers taking shitass ugly shots and using them in reviews. Use the official ones.


so you would sue a publication if they didn't use official DNF shots in a review?
#185 by "GeorgeBroussard"
2001-01-18 06:10:50
georgeb@3drealms.com
so you would sue a publication if they didn't use official DNF shots in a review?


Not sure.  We only plan to release a handful and would prefer those were used like in the Duke 3D reviews.  We really don't want web guys finishing the game on day one and posting 40 shots of DNF in a review.  So, we'll have to think about that one a bit.

Frankly your review of Giants ruined a lot of the game for me.
#186 by "Apache"
2001-01-18 06:11:24
apache@stomped.com
george broussard wrote:

Yup and as much as I like him (he even wrote the Terminal Velocity hint guide) - I don't like the fact that people profit from our work. It's a lot like people getting rich of Quake on web sites in the old days. Sure it was good for the community, but you know deep down it bothers id that Blue made hundreds of thousands off id's work. Blue started as a pure Quake site. He's a legit news site now, after growing, but the roots man :)


so how do you feel about brad making Dukeword and 3D Portal? Do you feel that he is leaching off you in a less-than-honest way?
#187 by "Apache"
2001-01-18 06:13:36
apache@stomped.com
george broussard wrote:

Not sure. We only plan to release a handful and would prefer those were used like in the Duke 3D reviews. We really don't want web guys finishing the game on day one and posting 40 shots of DNF in a review. So, we'll have to think about that one a bit.


in addition to taking the screen shots, would you like to write and grade the reviews also?
#188 by "GeorgeBroussard"
2001-01-18 06:15:56
georgeb@3drealms.com
in addition to taking the screen shots, would you like to write and grade the reviews also?


Don't be silly.  But you can't argue with the screenshot thing.  Nothing gives you the right to click 50 in a review.  Jesus.  Movie reviewers get press kits of stuff to use for movie reviews and shots in papers etc.  They don't go grab their own do they?

This is a problem that will be addressed.  Maybe the first version of the game will lock out screenshots and freeze alt tab'ing eh?  Then patch it 3-4 months later after the review period.  That is if people like you cause problems :)
#189 by "Apache"
2001-01-18 06:19:48
apache@stomped.com
george broussard wrote:

Don't be silly. But you can't argue with the screenshot thing. Nothing gives you the right to click 50 in a review. Jesus. Movie reviewers get press kits of stuff to use for movie reviews and shots in papers etc. They don't go grab their own do they?


of course you can. if you are reviewing the game, anyone can go out and buy it. gamespot typically has well over 100 shots in a review. comparing movie reviews to game reviews is not a valid comparison. a movie reviewer cannot take screen grabs from a giant theatre screen.
#190 by "None1a"
2001-01-18 06:20:43
none1a@home.com
<b>GeorgeBroussard</b> (#185):
<quote>Not sure. We only plan to release a handful and would prefer those were used like in the Duke 3D reviews. We really don't want web guys finishing the game on day one and posting 40 shots of DNF in a review. So, we'll have to think about that one a bit.</quote>

A handful would be a problem. If your only going to release a handful of offical shots why whould any body want to use them (after all they will be the same images people are seeing all over the place in other mags, and you know Apache gona post every single one of them).

<b>Andy</b> (#183):
<quote>So... should I patent it?</quote>

It's all based around standered stuff, so it'd be a bit hard to get it threw. And just wondering what the hell is it.
 <i><b></b></i><i></i><i></i>
#191 by "Andy"
2001-01-18 06:23:38
andy@meejahor.com
*buts in*


<b>GeorgeBroussard</b> (#188):
<quote>
This is a problem that will be addressed. Maybe the first version of the game will lock out screenshots and freeze alt tab'ing eh?
</quote>
Wouldn't stop HyperSnap et al.


<b>Apache</b> (#189):
<quote>
comparing movie reviews to game reviews is not a valid comparison. a movie reviewer cannot take screen grabs from a giant theatre screen.
</quote>
It's a perfectly valid comparison. A movie reviewer <i>could</i> take his own grabs if he was allowed access to a print of the movie, but he isn't, so he can't. That's what George is talking about -- not giving game reviewers access to the print, so to speak.


*buts back out*
#192 by "spackbace"
2001-01-18 06:25:32
brian@cc.gatech.edu
Andy (#183):

So... should I patent it?


It's all based around standered stuff, so it'd be a bit hard to get it threw. And just wondering what the hell is it.


I thought andy was being sarchastic... u know, making a point.
#193 by "Apache"
2001-01-18 06:26:42
apache@stomped.com
andy wrote:

It's a perfectly valid comparison. A movie reviewer could take his own grabs if he was allowed access to a print of the movie, but he isn't, so he can't. That's what George is talking about -- not giving game reviewers access to the print, so to speak.


but you can't review a game without having 'the print'. oh, I forgot - they want to take the screen shots and]/i] review it for you already, so I guess you're correct!
#194 by "Andy"
2001-01-18 06:35:49
andy@meejahor.com
<b>Apache</b> (#193):
<quote>
but you can't review a game without having 'the print'. oh, I forgot - they want to take the screen shots <I>and]/i] review it for you already, so I guess you're correct!</I>
</quote>
No, if I've understood George, he means you'll be able to play the game (watch the movie), use screenshots provided by 3DR (use stills provided by the movie studio), but you won't be able to take your own screenshots (take stills from a print of the movie). So you'll be in the same situation as movie reviewers.

I'm not saying I do or don't agree with what George is saying should happen, just that the game/movie reviewer comparison is valid.

But all of this is irrelevant because the web page I'm working on <b><i>ROCKS so damn hard!</i></b> It's going to be bigger than IT. ;-)
#195 by "Andy"
2001-01-18 06:37:39
andy@meejahor.com
Apache -- if you'd made a movie, would you want a reviewer to give away a load of major plot points and use stills from every scene? Because that's pretty much what a lot of game reviewers do on Da Web.
#196 by "GeorgeBroussard"
2001-01-18 06:39:39
georgeb@3drealms.com
Apache,

of course you can. if you are reviewing the game, anyone can go out and buy it. gamespot typically has well over 100 shots in a review. comparing movie reviews to game reviews is not a valid comparison. a movie reviewer cannot take screen grabs from a giant theatre screen


Because you CAN does not mean you SHOULD.

A handful would be a problem. If your only going to release a handful of offical shots why whould any body want to use them (after all they will be the same images people are seeing all over the place in other mags, and you know Apache gona post every single one of them).


I don't give a rat's ass about a website's exclusive shots.  Use ours.  You don't wanna review the game because you can't take shots?  Don't.  Reviewers 1) take shitty shots and 2) take too many of them and spoil things for gamers.
#197 by "None1a"
2001-01-18 06:42:56
none1a@home.com
<b>GeorgeBroussard</b> (#196):
<quote>I don't give a rat's ass about a website's exclusive shots. Use ours. You don't wanna review the game because you can't take shots? Don't. Reviewers 1) take shitty shots and 2) take too many of them and spoil things for gamers.</quote>

Hum, I was just thinking what if reviews that didn't want to use the provided shots ran the ones they did want to use by some one at 3dr first (faceing the fact that in order to do so would mean a delay while running the provided shots would get the review out faster). <i><b></b></i><i></i><i></i>
#198 by "CharlieWiederhold"
2001-01-18 06:47:29
charliew@3drealms.com
a movie reviewer cannot take screen grabs from a giant theatre screen.


That's funny, then were do all those VCD bootlegs of movies come from before the movie has left the theaters?

I guess the invention of the camera has passed you by Apache? ;)

----

As for Nintendo, we'll see if they win, and if they do how much of their original claim is ruled on. I can't see us having anywhere near the might to do something like that but they certainly have it. Then again, if Nintendo wins it becomes a rule until it is overturned... and ohh my aching head after that. Unofficial guides suck, and I think they are trying to do like any situation like this is done, and spread a blanket over the entire thing to cover all their bases. Then the gray areas of "when to enforce and when not to" pops up.

Charlie Wiederhold
#199 by "WarrenMarshall"
2001-01-18 06:49:11
warren@epicgames.com
Apache (#189):
gamespot typically has well over 100 shots in a review

And that's absolutely ridiculous.

---

Warren Marshall
Level Designer/Programmer/Corporate Shill
Epic Games (www.epicgames.com)<i><b></b></i><i></i><i></i>
#200 by "Andy"
2001-01-18 06:50:03
andy@meejahor.com
George, I'm not trying to 'trap' you, but...


<b>GeorgeBroussard</b> (#178):
<quote>
<quote>What do you mean? You would stop people using screenshots? </quote>
No, not shots specifically...that'd be silly.
</quote>
<b>GeorgeBroussard</b> (#196):
<quote>
I don't give a rat's ass about a website's exclusive shots. Use ours. You don't wanna review the game because you can't take shots? Don't. Reviewers 1) take shitty shots and 2) take too many of them and spoil things for gamers.
</quote>
So if the web site reviewer went ahead and took some shots from the game without permission, and used them without authorisation, and let's also say 3DR thinks they will spoil the game for people, what would you do?

If you won't sue, how can you control what shots are used?
#201 by "GeorgeBroussard"
2001-01-18 06:55:33
georgeb@3drealms.com
Andy,

So if the web site reviewer went ahead and took some shots from the game without permission, and used them without authorisation, and let's also say 3DR thinks they will spoil the game for people, what would you do?  If you won't sue, how can you control what shots are used?


Dunno.  We're talking hypothetically here.  We all agree that most web reviews post too many shots and usually bad shots.  I don't see why they can't use the provided shots (it's been done that way for years in the past).

The easiest solution is to prevent shots in the initial release.  Sure you can bypass it, but most people probably wouldn't bother.  And even things like HyperSnap can be prevented, if you wanna bother.

Guess the question is "what do you do when web sites don't respect your wishes?".  Don't know....yet.  But I think you and I can agree that the current system is kinda stinky, right?
#202 by "Apache"
2001-01-18 06:55:54
apache@stomped.com
george broussard wrote:
I don't give a rat's ass about a website's exclusive shots. Use ours. You don't wanna review the game because you can't take shots? Don't. Reviewers 1) take shitty shots and 2) take too many of them and spoil things for gamers.


okay, lets review the shots that 3DR has released.

http://www.3drealms.com/duke4/index.html

"Area51" - screen shot with chainsaw hand in view, overall it screams "anti-aliase" me, and has some little alien men working on computers. Overall, pretty bland. I give a 5/10.

"Casino" - Some guy getting shot in a casino. Amazing. I rate it 4/10.

"Club" - Duke ventures in the a strip club, no stippers are in the shot though. that has to mark down the score. 5/10.

"Crane" Duke is operating a crane, there are two explosins in view. Whoopity-do! 5/10.

"GusandMule" Guy in ghost town posing with his mule. No real action anywhere. 5/10.

"Hooverdam" Wow, here's a shot that I actually like *gasp*. The rock textures look a bit fake, almost like they were photoshoped in, but the dam looks nice and the trooper's eyes are really neat. 8/10.

"Launch" Another cool shot, the missle launching is a break backdrop and the lighting is somewhat nice, but the general's face is blacked out and his 'fingers' look really nasty. 7/10.

"Stratos Fear" This could be the best of the bunch, the backdrop is a very cool looking club, the sky looks nice and the gunship is very imposing. It lacks a certain something in the center, but overall it's an interesting image. 7/10.

"Tentacles" Not a bad screen shot, it shows off a trooper with tenticles growing out of his body and mouth. the gun scope with the US flag is a nice touch and the volcanic action in the center of the screen is a good foundation. 8/10.

"DamGuide" This shot is really lame, it's some guy next to a sign. It's right up there with the Tribes 2 shot "Man next to tree".

Now, if you guys want to dicate the shots, at least take some good ones, the ones you have now are really poor overall.
#203 by "CharlieWiederhold"
2001-01-18 07:03:04
charliew@3drealms.com
Mmm... tastes... bitter.

Hey, camera, Apache, movies and games are a fair comparison, are they not?

Charlie Wiederhold
#204 by "GeorgeBroussard"
2001-01-18 07:04:31
georgeb@3drealms.com
Apache,

/me deflates huge ego on web news monkey.

Due you were spooging and begging for new screen shots for the re-launch of VE, so I don't suppose they were all that bad.  Why would you bother with all that begging for shots that rate 5/10?

/boggle
#205 by "Apache"
2001-01-18 07:05:08
apache@stomped.com
Hey, camera, Apache, movies and games are a fair comparison, are they not?


I dont think you can take the same quality of image with a camera in a threatre that you can from having access to the source.

That's like taking screen shots of a game with a digital camera off a moniter. You CAN, but I don't see many game reviews doing this...
#206 by "Andy"
2001-01-18 07:05:48
andy@meejahor.com
<b>GeorgeBroussard</b> (#201):
<quote>
Guess the question is "what do you do when web sites don't respect your wishes?". Don't know....yet. But I think you and I can agree that the current system is kinda stinky, right?
</quote>
Well, remember that "web sites don't respect your wishes" and "web sites don't do what you tell them" aren't quite the same thing. :-)


<b>Apache</b> (#202):
<quote>
Now, if you guys want to dicate the shots, at least take some good ones, <b>the ones you have now</b> are really poor overall.
</quote>
... are of an unfinished game. The rushes, you might say.
#207 by "Apache"
2001-01-18 07:06:03
apache@stomped.com
Due you were spooging and begging for new screen shots for the re-launch of VE, so I don't suppose they were all that bad. Why would you bother with all that begging for shots that rate 5/10?


you can 20 other game companies, georgie!
#208 by "toadwarrior"
2001-01-18 07:06:05
toadw@uplink.net
<b>#172</b> "Andy" wrote...
<quote><B>Apache</B> (#170):

<quote>
whoa. I wonder if 3DR would pull something like this? ;)

<A href="http://www.dailyradar.com/nintendo/index.shtml">http://www.dailyradar.com/nintendo/index.shtml</A>
</quote>
Yes, I believe they will, as will more and more software companies.

BTW, did you know that Nintendo is being sued itself? By Uri Gellar, the genuine and sincere man who can bend spoons with just the power of his mind, oh yes he can. I forget the specifics of the case but basically he claims that a Pokemon character was based on him, and due to its 'evil' nature has damaged his reputation.</quote>

I heard about it and I hope someone wraps a fucking spoon around his head.
<i><b></b></i><i></i><i></i>
#209 by "Apache"
2001-01-18 07:06:29
apache@stomped.com
can = and
#210 by "None1a"
2001-01-18 07:10:09
none1a@home.com
<b>Apache</b> (#205):
<quote>That's like taking screen shots of a game with a digital camera off a moniter. You CAN, but I don't see many game reviews doing this...</quote>

Why whould they have to? What brake your print screen button with Giants :) You can manage to take a really good image of a movie screen (a good 35mm and some high speed film and you basicly be taking a picture of a frame from it).  <i><b></b></i><i></i><i></i>
#211 by "Andy"
2001-01-18 07:10:45
andy@meejahor.com
<b>Apache</b> (#205):
<quote>
That's like taking screen shots of a game with a digital camera off a moniter. You CAN, but I don't see many game reviews doing this...
</quote>
All screenshots used to be taken with a camera. The transition to games that would output screenshots to file happened while I was still reading lots of mags, and I never realised it until someone pointed it out to me much later.

In other words, shots taken with a camera can be just as good as shots taken in-game, so reviewers *could* go back to doing it that way if they wanted. But how many web reviewers would bother? Too much like hard work. :-)

Not that I'm saying you personally are lazy. I don't think you are.
#212 by "GeorgeBroussard"
2001-01-18 07:10:55
georgeb@3drealms.com
you can 20 other game companies, georgie!


Long as you admit you were digging for shots, and have many, many times in the past.  You and Billy both.  I'd have thought that you'd have your standards and not want such ugly ass 5/10 shots on your site.  It may damage your reputaion :)
#213 by "GeorgeBroussard"
2001-01-18 07:13:25
georgeb@3drealms.com
All screenshots used to be taken with a camera. The transition to games that would output screenshots to file happened while I was still reading lots of mags, and I never realised it until someone pointed it out to me much later.


Yes indeedy that's how it worked in the early 1990's.  I remember taking shots of games on slides, and getting lots of copies to send to reviewers that would request them.  They'd then print the slides in the magazines.

Then we all started putting screenshot captures in games and it changed overnight.
#214 by "Apache"
2001-01-18 07:14:17
apache@stomped.com
Long as you admit you were digging for shots, and have many, many times in the past. You and Billy both. I'd have thought that you'd have your standards and not want such ugly ass 5/10 shots on your site. It may damage your reputaion :)


haha, well no one is disputing that!

My point is that you say that reviewers take really bad shots but the ones you have now (which at the time were impressive just because of the technology) are nothing better than anyone else can take. Dig?
#215 by "GeorgeBroussard"
2001-01-18 07:16:00
georgeb@3drealms.com
My point is that you say that reviewers take really bad shots but the ones you have now (which at the time were impressive just because of the technology) are nothing better than anyone else can take. Dig?


I disagree 100%.  Our shots were the best we could take then.  Now, they'd be better.  More effects and action and blood etc.

But I've seen reviewers shots time and time again and they suck.  We take like 100+ shots to get 1 good one.  You guys just snap and print for the most part.  You really cannot dispute that...in general.  Just go start looking at reviews.

We care more, therefore we take better shots (in general).
#216 by "SteveBauman"
2001-01-18 07:18:07
steve@manic-pop-thrills.com
This is an interesting case. Daily Radar's letter is laughable, since Nintendo is going after them specifically for using POKEMON in the name of the book; it's not about how they cover the games. It's predictable, but they make it sound like Nintendo's trying to alter their existing coverage and Daily Radar is fighting for the integrity of their edit when in fact they're actually fighting for their right to sell a derivative work without permission. I couldn't create a book "Adventures of Duke Nukem" without permission, so why should Imagine be able to sell a strategy guide with Pokemon in the title? Perhaps if it was "Guide to That Game With Annoying Little Monsters" Nintendo wouldn't have a case.

Arguing about fair use laws with regards to artwork in a strategy guide would be interesting, because the sheer quantity of images, presented in such a manner as to illustrate the vast majority of the game, probably violates the law, as does the actual text (i.e. it tells you everything about the game, therefore eliminating your need to actual play it, or something loopy like that).

Would 100 screenshots of Duke Nukem presented in a review do the same thing? Good question, very good question. You could argue that it gives away enough of the experience that it violates part of the fair use laws, which is as follows:

The fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright. In determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include -

(1) the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a
commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;

(2) the nature of the copyrighted work;

(3) the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted
work as a whole; and

(4) the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted
work. The fact that a work is unpublished shall not itself bar a finding of fair use
if such finding is made upon consideration of all the above factors.


Clearly Nintendo could make an argument on (4), as the unofficial guides definitely hurt the market for official ones. But the "nature" of the copright (2) is probably the point that will be argued by Daily Radar. Where are those lawyers to explain this all for us? I only made it page 4 of the legal document before nodding off.
#217 by "Apache"
2001-01-18 07:19:08
apache@stomped.com
But I've seen reviewers shots time and time again and they suck. We take like 100+ shots to get 1 good one. You guys just snap and print for the most part. You really cannot dispute that...in general. Just go start looking at reviews.


I agree with you that a lot of reviewers take a lot of really bad shots, but there are some people who actually can take decent captures...

The average PR person has about the same skill in taking screen grabs as the average reviewers.

Exceptional PR people/developers can take exceptional screen shots, same with the same calibur of press people...
#218 by "SteveBauman"
2001-01-18 07:24:16
steve@manic-pop-thrills.com
Oh, and I tend to take upwards of 100 shots per review and whittle it down to 5-10 good ones. Then again, we typically don't throw up 100 screenshots of any game... and in print, we definitely wouldn't do that.

The difference between movies and games: people typically don't want to see and hear everything about a movie before they see it whereas gamers appear to enjoy having everything spoiled for them ahead of time.
#219 by "toadwarrior"
2001-01-18 07:24:38
toadw@uplink.net
Gotta agree with George. I hate how websites think it's cool to have pics from the 2nd half of the game or even shit from the end of the first half.

Who cares if another site goes tits up, don't spoil the game. If you site needs exclusive screen shots to get hits, it probably sucks anyway.<i><b></b></i><i></i><i></i>
#220 by "None1a"
2001-01-18 07:25:33
none1a@home.com
<b>Apache</b> (#217):
<quote>The average PR person has about the same skill in taking screen grabs as the average reviewers.

Exceptional PR people/developers can take exceptional screen shots, same with the same calibur of press people...</quote>

Thus the reason for my sucjestion of having reviewer that want to use their own shots send them in for review first (only the shots not the review). You can kind of assume that if some one was willing to wait for the shots to be review they where going to sell the article on the exclusive shots and thus would take a bit more care in grabing them. Those that would simply grab any thing and post it would be the ones that want to get the review up first (and are thus stuck with the provided shots). <i><b></b></i><i></i><i></i>
#221 by "WarrenMarshall"
2001-01-18 07:25:41
warren@epicgames.com
Apache (#207):
you can 20 other game companies, georgie!

"georgie".  You really showed him!  *ZING!*

GeorgeBroussard (#215):
We care more, therefore we take better shots (in general).

Right, and this is the difference.  The developer will generally agonize over the shots they release because they want them to be the best they can be.  There are certain exceptions of course (*cough*Tribes2*cough*), but generally a developer will try and get the best possible shots.

As a rule, developers want quantity .. but web reviewers seem to think that quantity is more important.

"A gallery of 300 screenshots!"

Is that really appealing?  When most of if consists of the same scene from 10 different angles?  I once saw a gallery of Tomb Raider shots that had Lara running down a hall.  10 shots.  The camera never moved.  Just Lara getting closer and closer with each shot.  What the hell ...

---

Warren Marshall
Level Designer/Programmer/Corporate Shill
Epic Games (www.epicgames.com)<i><b></b></i><i></i><i></i>
#222 by "PainKilleR"
2001-01-18 07:30:58
painkiller@planetfortress.com
<b>None1a</b> (#220):
<quote>Thus the reason for my sucjestion of having reviewer that want to use their own shots send them in for review first (only the shots not the review). You can kind of assume that if some one was willing to wait for the shots to be review they where going to sell the article on the exclusive shots and thus would take a bit more care in grabing them. Those that would simply grab any thing and post it would be the ones that want to get the review up first (and are thus stuck with the provided shots). </quote>

I don't think there's a game company out there that has the man power, let alone the desire, to go over every kid with a website's screenshots just to reject them and have the kid post them anyway. Not to mention that after looking at the 100+ shots sent by someone with a geocities page you'd get maybe 10 good ones from a better known site and by that time everything you look at looks like crap just because you're sick of looking at it (and Tribes 2 syndrom has set in).

Not to mention making sure your mail server can handle all of the images in whatever format the person decided to take them in (oh yeah, ever turn on the auto-end-of-round snapshot option in Half-life? Gotta love the directory full of 5MB bmp files).

-PainKilleR-[CE]<i><b></b></i><i></i><i></i>
#223 by "PainKilleR"
2001-01-18 07:33:51
painkiller@planetfortress.com
<b>WarrenMarshall</b> (#221):
<quote>As a rule, developers want quantity .. but web reviewers seem to think that quantity is more important.
</quote>

oops ;)

(yeah, I'm tired and I had to use ucc batchexport to extract a shipload of classes because UnrealEd doesn't work, so it's time to pick on Warren Marshall ;)

-PainKilleR-[CE]<i><b></b></i><i></i><i></i>
#224 by "SteveBauman"
2001-01-18 07:36:36
steve@manic-pop-thrills.com
As a rule, developers want quantity .. but web reviewers seem to think that quantity is more important.

I know you meant quality up there with developers, but you're sorta wrong. GAMERS are the ones wanting quantity. If people didn't click on all of those screenshots, do you think publications would spend the bandwidth on them? Gamers have an insatiable appetite for ruining each and every game. They can't get enough information on a game before it ships. It's sorta depressing...

Oh, and I tend to include shots from throughout a game because GAMERS (again) will, if they disagree with you, try to discredit the whole review by claiming you didn't finish a game because all of the shots are from the first level. I try not to give anything away... it's not THAT hard. You just need to think about these things.

And I have little desire to get shots approved, and I suspect George Broussard has better things to do than sit around staring at hundreds of screenshots from thousands of websites. If they want people to use their screenshots what they can try to do is give out about 40 or so, which for print people means there's less chance for overlap as we'll use 10-20 for a 2-5 page story. Of course a website would just put up all 40, so maybe you give the major websites a set of 5-10 that are exclusive, and others a standard pool of 10.

I dunno. If it were as easy to get high-quality movie stills as it is to get game screens, I think there'd be problems in movie magazines.
#225 by "Apache"
2001-01-18 07:37:37
apache@stomped.com
ANYHOW...

Nintendo has done this sort of thing before, they sued GameFan Magazine way back when they did the Mario64 guide. The case was settled in favor of GameFan in case anyone was interested.
#226 by "WarrenMarshall"
2001-01-18 07:43:45
warren@epicgames.com
PainKilleR (#223):
As a rule, developers want quantity .. but web reviewers seem to think that quantity is more important.

Whatever.  :)  Hopefully my point is understand, stupid mistakes aside.  ;)

Apache (#225):
ANYHOW...

Translation : "Since I'm wrong and can't admit it, let's get back on topic..."

---

Warren Marshall
Level Designer/Programmer/Corporate Shill
Epic Games (www.epicgames.com)<i><b></b></i><i></i><i></i>
#227 by "None1a"
2001-01-18 07:44:54
none1a@home.com
<b>PainKilleR</b> (#222):
<quote>I don't think there's a game company out there that has the man power, let alone the desire, to go over every kid with a website's screenshots just to reject them and have the kid post them anyway. Not to mention that after looking at the 100+ shots sent by someone with a geocities page you'd get maybe 10 good ones from a better known site and by that time everything you look at looks like crap just because you're sick of looking at it (and Tribes 2 syndrom has set in).
</quote>

I don't think the kids will even bother sending them in. A limit on screen shots could help a lot (and also stop the 100+ screen shot carp even with out the reviews), a no body sending in over so many shots gets any apporved sort of thing (this way they cut them down to what they think are the best first).

<b>SteveBauman</b> (#224):
<quote>Oh, and I tend to include shots from throughout a game because GAMERS (again) will, if they disagree with you, try to discredit the whole review by claiming you didn't finish a game because all of the shots are from the first level. I try not to give anything away... it's not THAT hard. You just need to think about these things.</quote>

That reminds me of another thing that pisses me off. Sites that run images of the menu system, I don't buy a game for the stinking menu and it doesn't make an interesting image why bother running them? <i><b></b></i><i></i><i></i>
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