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T O P I C
Steamy Top Ten
December 27th 2000, 22:38 CET by nick

What do Tribes 2, Black & White and Duke Nukem Forever have in common?

They're all "winners"!

They all made it to Wired's infamous Vaporware 2000 list. (Also, check out the list of 1999, 1998, 1997 winners.) Not to worry, though -- some winners do well in the market place, but there are some that don't make it to the list twice in a row.
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#1 by "Sho_Dragon"
2000-12-27 22:45:02
dragon@planetshogo.com
I rather have the games end up as vapoware than have them get rushed and turned into turds that could have owned.
#2 by "Barneyque"
2000-12-27 22:57:59
barneyque@hotmail.com
*ouch*, I see a number of comments in that article that certain developers are almost certain to have a contrary opinion to.
<i><b></b></i><i></i><i></i>
#3 by "Sgt_Hulka"
2000-12-27 23:21:35
rwaring@ameritech.net
Was Duke Nukem Fashion Designer on the list?
#4 by "gimper"
2000-12-27 23:26:02
jeremyj@impactimaging.com
The biggest one I saw was Warcraft three.  Not only has it been in production forever, they have admitted to actually taking out some features and it's still late.  Still I agree with Sho_Dragon.  Is it better to rush a game out (weren't we talking about Ultima 9 in another crap?) and have it be unplayable, or have them take their time and have us love it?
#5 by "the_reformed_pianist"
2000-12-27 23:51:59
pianist@canada.com
5TH POST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
#6 by "Apache"
2000-12-27 23:53:31
apache@stomped.com
ouchie, those guys don't pull punches.
#7 by "Greg"
2000-12-28 00:00:27
greg417@worldnet.att.net
I thought the article was pretty lame. I'm not knocking the article for what they talk about but how. There are many quotes throughout the article. Who are those people that are quoted? Are they industry writers? I don't think so; I don't recognize any names. It looks like they are people who responded to a poll on their web site. Without acknowledging that fact, the article looks real bad.

Greg
#8 by "Greg"
2000-12-28 00:05:09
greg417@worldnet.att.net
OK, looking at the 1999 list, they quoted Jamie Zawinski from Netscape/Mozilla. In two years they only have one recognizable name - but tons of quotes? Hahaha.

Greg
#9 by "Andy"
2000-12-28 00:08:41
andy@meejahor.com
<b>Greg</b> (#7):
<quote>
I thought the article was pretty lame. I'm not knocking the article for what they talk about but how. There are many quotes throughout the article. Who are those people that are quoted? Are they industry writers? I don't think so; I don't recognize any names. It looks like they are people who responded to a poll on their web site. Without acknowledging that fact, the article looks real bad.
</quote>
I don't think there's any pretense that the people quoted are anything other than regular Joes. And what's wrong with that? We're the people who buy the end products so surely our opinions are just as important as "industry writers", if not more so?

But, having said that, I also have to say that I find the whole article to be quite ridiculous. What's the point of compiling a list of products that were supposed to be out this year, but aren't? I just don't see what all the fuss is about. And this "vaporware" tag is getting old.
#10 by "the_reformed_pianist"
2000-12-28 00:20:46
pianist@canada.com
Your mom is getting old!
#11 by "Lucky"
2000-12-28 00:46:15
lucky@planetduke.com
Heh, you guys haven't lived until you get emails from a guy saying "DNF sux its VAPORWARE!" and "When is it out?" in the same actual message.

Ah well, Wired.com's actual research didn't exactly inspire me. B&W just went Alpha and DNF wasn't set for January 1998 release. Hell the game shown in the E3 video in 1998 wasn't even done :P
#12 by "CharlieWiederhold"
2000-12-28 01:23:14
charliew@3drealms.com
I'm really happy we beat out so many games that look like they are gonna be top notch. Hurrah for Duke!

Charlie Wiederhold
#13 by "nick"
2000-12-28 01:56:22
nickb@iname.com
I was surprised that Bitboys haven't made it on the list... They're so far out there that Wired would need to create Ether 2000 list just for them.
#14 by "None1a"
2000-12-28 02:09:58
none1a@home.com
<b>#9</b> "Andy" wrote...
<quote>I also have to say that I find the whole article to be quite ridiculous. What's the point of compiling a list of products that were supposed to be out this year, but aren't? I just don't see what all the fuss is about. And this "vaporware" tag is getting old.</quote>

The problem is that most of the things on the list are not vaporware. The list is really nothing more then a list of stuff Wired readers really wanted to get this year but didn't.

About the only thing on the list that's really vaporware is bluetooth. The last revision to the 1.0 specs was back in 1999, some products where shown off this year, and no none of the companies developing it are talking about bluetooth anymore. I suspect Microsoft's .net will end up doing a few of the same things as bluetooth did and end up beuing used far more.

Just a refresher on what I think of as vaporware, any thing that is anounced, hyped, then all word of stops ending in the product never being released and no offical notice given. In other words is has be canned and never talked about to be vaporware (Pray would be a good example).<i><b></b></i><i></i><i></i>
#15 by "Apache"
2000-12-28 02:19:02
apache@stomped.com
I don't think that Wired understands the concept behind vaporware.

If they named Diablo II as vaporware last year, then it goes to sell a couple million copies, that's really not vaporware to me.

To me, Vaporware can be defined as technologies that will never see the light of day or be released.
#16 by "WarrenMarshall"
2000-12-28 02:46:55
warren@epicgames.com
Andy (#9):
I don't think there's any pretense that the people quoted are anything other than regular Joes. And what's wrong with that? We're the people who buy the end products so surely our opinions are just as important as "industry writers", if not more so?

Well, there IS a problem with that depending on where they got those people from.  Most people posting to messageboards/etc are just doing it to bitch.  Yes, that's a sweeping statement but on the whole you have to admit that most messageboards are pretty freakin negative.  It's the nature of the online gamer to bitch.


The start of the article is great ...

"The bona fide beginning of the new millennium is almost upon us, but some things never change: The tech industry continues to whip up excitement by promising amazing new technologies, only to crush our spirits by delaying, postponing, pushing back or otherwise derailing the arrival of said goods -- sometimes indefinitely. "

To quote Denis Leary, "Life sucks, get a fuckin' helmet".

---

Warren Marshall
Level Designer/Programmer/Corporate Shill
Epic Games (www.epicgames.com)<i><b></b></i><i></i><i></i>
#17 by "WarrenMarshall"
2000-12-28 02:51:02
warren@epicgames.com
This is classic ...

"10: Tribes 2: Sierra Studios' Tribes 2 - billed as "Team combat on an epic scale" - was first previewed 18 months ago and has been a regular fixture in the gaming press ever since. Officially "Coming Soon.""

18 months?  So let's say that it was in development for 6 months prior to that.  They are predicting release in the first quarter next year (AFAIK).  So that's just over 2 years.  That's vaporware?  Cry me a fucking river ...

---

Warren Marshall
Level Designer/Programmer/Corporate Shill
Epic Games (www.epicgames.com)<i><b></b></i><i></i><i></i>
#18 by "Barneyque"
2000-12-28 02:53:18
barneyque@hotmail.com
<b>#15</b> "Apache" wrote...
<quote>I don't think that Wired understands the concept behind vaporware.

If they named Diablo II as vaporware last year, then it goes to sell a couple million copies, that's really not vaporware to me.

To me, Vaporware can be defined as technologies that will never see the light of day or be released.</quote>


I think the term is flexible, or has been co-opted for other uses.  It used to be common to accuse Microsoft of using vapourware as a tool in the FUD cycle.  In this context, MS would pre-announce a product very, very early in the cycle to either put FUD into potential customers, causing them to hold off on other similar products while they wait for the killer product from MS, or they would be attempting to scare off other potential developers planning to make, or already in a certain market.

In the gameworld, vapourware has simply become software where the developer has slipped up and accidently released a date that has passed by, or somethimes, like for DNF, or TF2, gamers tend to use a very scientific process of decerning when a game should have been ready, by either obtaining a figure from their ass, also known as pulling a date out of their ass, or sometimes, they just make up a date, and collectively, the online crowd will start to generally accept such date, which is either fictional, or obtained from COA[1], and such information is then used to publically beat developers to death with in fourms not unlike out present facility here at PlanetCrap.









[1] COA....Crack of Ass<i><b></b></i><i></i><i></i>
#19 by "BloodKnight"
2000-12-28 03:52:30
bloodknight@somethingawful.com
<b>WarrenMarshall</b> (#17):
<quote>18 months? So let's say that it was in development for 6 months prior to that. They are predicting release in the first quarter next year (AFAIK). So that's just over 2 years. That's vaporware? Cry me a fucking river ...</quote>

I don't blame them for poking fun at Tribes 2.  Not because its out, but the fucking previews every day I see on Blue's News or Voodoo Extreme.  I even seen this game on Electric Playground (Gaming TV) and I wasn't all that impressed with Tribes 2, probably the reason why they are showing still shots instead of being shown on TV everywhere :)


<i><b></b></i><i></i><i></i>
#20 by "BloodKnight"
2000-12-28 03:53:20
bloodknight@somethingawful.com
FUCK FUCK I meant just because it isn't out !
<i><b></b></i><i></i><i></i>
#21 by "WarrenMarshall"
2000-12-28 04:05:56
warren@epicgames.com
BloodKnight (#19):
I don't blame them for poking fun at Tribes 2. Not because its out, but the fucking previews every day I see on Blue's News or Voodoo Extreme. I even seen this game on Electric Playground (Gaming TV) and I wasn't all that impressed with Tribes 2, probably the reason why they are showing still shots instead of being shown on TV everywhere :)

Well, Tribes2 has become (in my eyes) the perfect example of how NOT to market a game.  Flooding the net with daily movies, screenshots and previews for months on end is just fucking stupid.  It's overkill.  People are being turned off of the game because they're sick of hearing about it.

Marketing people listen up ... there IS such a thing as too much.

---

Warren Marshall
Level Designer/Programmer/Corporate Shill
Epic Games (www.epicgames.com)<i><b></b></i><i></i><i></i>
#22 by "Topaz"
2000-12-28 04:20:02
smith_mt@hotmail.com
Tribes2 should be put in its own category called SpamWare or VaporSpam.
#23 by "BloodKnight"
2000-12-28 04:28:41
bloodknight@somethingawful.com
<b>Topaz</b> (#22):
<quote>Tribes2 should be put in its own category called SpamWare or VaporSpam.</quote>

More like annoyance
<i><b></b></i><i></i><i></i>
#24 by "Rambar"
2000-12-28 05:03:08
rambar@homegettingablowjob.com
Coporate Shill #16
<QUOTE>Well, there IS a problem with that depending on where they got those people from. Most people posting to messageboards/etc are just doing it to bitch. Yes, that's a sweeping statement but on the whole you have to admit that most messageboards are pretty freakin negative. It's the nature of the online gamer to bitch.</QUOTE>

Incorrect.  It's the nature of human beings to bitch.  Get your local paper everyday for a week and read the letters to the editor.  It's not a happy place of sunshine and lolipops.

I do have a bitch with that vaporware list too :)  Some of those vaporous items are actually out in beta/alpha form.
#25 by "EvilAsh"
2000-12-28 05:04:16
evilash@eviladam.com
Is Dnf  a vaporware product? .. Maybe yes.. maybe so.. But considering 3drealms is already the proud owner of a true vaporware product in Prey.. Why should we be so confident about DNF?  


Let's see.. q2 engine.. was being developed some 5 minute demo footage shown at E3.. knocks everyone socks off.

Q2 engine scrapped.

Unreal engine is used.    2 years later.

Unreal Engine being used still.. And the Unreal sequal UT is released even before Dnf is complete.
Unreal engine in the meantime is getting numerous tweaks and updates.. Then epic takes 7 months to release a serious Patch for Unreal.  

3drealms half-complains in various posts and threads about these frequent updates and the delays waiting for code drops from Epic.

Then in a post I forgot who from 3drealms .. I believe it was George even admitted all the time lost porting to the Unreal engine was wasted.. because they overestimated the feature set of the Unreal engine .. and they had to make as many changes and updates on their own to the engine as much if they had  stayed to with the Q2 engine in the FIRST PLACE!!!!!

Then finally UT gets released.. And now 3drealms switches to that engine.   And this is where they have been now.


In the mean-time several game design companies have released several excellent titles in the same 3 year period!

Raven has released Heretic2, Soldier of Fortune and Elite Force in the same time period!

New companies like the developers behind Rune have developed and released Titles like Fakk2,Rune, Deus Ex and many others.

All in the same time frame. Several have started development Even later then 3drealms!

Products like Baldur's Gate 2 have been completed in less time.

Now what is my point?  My point is.. does DNF deserve a free ride?  should 3drealms be kissed up because of their ahem Ant-hype policy?   OR is this just really a form of reverse psychology?  ARe they trying to increase the hype by releasing tidbits of info from answering inane threads on the 3drealms forums?

Do they actually believe that they won't be held to an EVEN GREATER STANDARD beyond anyone else in the FPS market?
After titles like Half-life ,Deus Ex ,Thief 2 and System Shock2... Don't they realize that the bar has been raised so high..  Its going to take a product beyond what everyone can imagine to satisfy millions?

Do they believe their title will be so dam good.. Its going to cause developers to view it.. and re-think their ideas of what game design is about?   I mean look at the response from the Metal Gear Solid Trailer at E3. How many designers walked away shaking their heads and realizing their current projects looked infantile in comparison.. and many actually designed to take a long hard look at what their current project was turning out!

3dRealms in various interviews and plan updates has even pushed the hype to incredible levels.. in their shear over-confidence. If you looked at the various 3d realms posts were a member has said over and over.. Don't  worry Our Game will BLOW EVERYTHING ELSE AWAY. .. Don't worry I have seen what everyone is currently doing.. I know our title will reign supreme.

Its amazing people can criticize a company like Blizzard for example.. But you know what.. They actually back-up their claims.

The only new content if you call it content from 3drealms in the last 3 years has been signed off duke3d thirdperson ps ports.. most of which have been "SAD".   At least blizzard doesn't go out and say..   "Diablo2 will blow everyone else away.. We guarantee it.. We guarantee it will outsell everyone else EASY."

They just release info for their fans to enjoy and read about.

And a demo does not spoil a game. A demo enhances the excitment over a product.. and allows consumers to make better choices.

The excuse that saving demos or screenshots will keep DNF a fresh pristine experience is just that boulder-dash.

A good demo is a like a good trailer.. it just heightens your anticipation.. but it doesn't ruin the final experience.

This so-called media blackout is idiotic and foolish. It serves no purpose.  Cause there is no guarantee a product will after many years of development will be the end all be all..  Look at Messiah.

I say drop the damn act. Have a clear cut time-table of development..  A REALISTIC time-table... And just be honest with your gaults about DNF.   The game will have to be reviewed..  Many people will wait to read reviews...

Wooops there goes that pristine fresh experience 3drealms was trying to protect.
Its a worthless effort. Cut the act.... And just finish the dam game.
#26 by "Rambar"
2000-12-28 05:09:04
rambar@homegettingablowjob.com
Thank you, EvilAsh.
#27 by "CharlieWiederhold"
2000-12-28 05:23:44
charliew@3drealms.com
It makes me happy to see you back EvilAsh. You warm my heart.

Charlie Wiederhold
#28 by "CharlieWiederhold"
2000-12-28 05:36:14
charliew@3drealms.com
By the way, there will be a demo of DNF, EA. So... uhhh... shoo fly, don't bother me. If you don't like the demo then don't buy the game. We don't ask for or expect anymore from anyone, and have never asked for anything more from anyone.

Charlie Wiederhold
#29 by "Barneyque"
2000-12-28 05:48:26
barneyque@hotmail.com
EvilAsh's statement follows a similar trend we are discussing in the No One Codes Forever thread, but from a different angle.

In the other discussion, we are fleshing out the concepts of who decides how we play our games, and related material.

In this discussion presented by EvilAsh, we have an argument more on less on the rights and wrongs of game development.  And just like in the other discussion, I'm going to say, while it was an interesting read, in the end, it's none of our business how 3dr goes about the development process.  They are spending their own moneys developing a game to, and by there own standards, and quite frankly, it's not our place to dictate any standards in the matter.  We don't enter the picture until we plop down our $$$.

So everyone get back in line, and wait like good little gamers.   :)

<i><b></b></i><i></i><i></i>
#30 by "1"
2000-12-28 07:00:12
primer55@g33k.net
Uhhh, these Wired guys have smoked one too many Yule logs... I wouldn't call any of those game vapourware. When you have actual in-game screenshots it's not vapourware. It's on vapourware -- to me, anyway -- if there is nothing but the developer's word that the game is going to be released. (i.e. nothing like screenshots, promo movies, demos ...etc. just a developer claiming "yo dude, we got a phat game comin' out!")

_1!
#31 by "Xerxes"
2000-12-28 08:03:56
becker_jason@yahoo.com
The Internet has been a help to developers/publishers and a pitfall too. It allows them to stay in touch with fans and give them updated information on their games. It can also be taken to far to the point where people hear about a upcoming game every other day(case in point Tribes 2). Even though Tribes2's devlopment time isn't really longer than most games these days it just seem like its been allot longer since they started hyping it from the almost the very start. The Interenet can be a great tool to help get a game attention but it can also come back to bite you in the ass if you take it too far. Many devlopers *cough* Ion Storm *cough* know the experience very well.
#32 by "None1a"
2000-12-28 08:16:29
none1a@home.com
<b>#31</b> "Xerxes" wrote...
<quote>The Internet has been a help to developers/publishers and a pitfall too. It allows them to stay in touch with fans and give them updated information on their games. It can also be taken to far to the point where people hear about a upcoming game every other day(case in point Tribes 2). </quote>

The problem now is with many developers releasing infomation way to soon. Nothing should be released untill it's at lest in a playable form (some of the early Tribes 2 stuff was nothing but shots of the maps in the editor).

It'd be nice for a few more developer to take the lesson the DNF quake II engine shots showed. Don't hack together stuff for trade show or mags, rather keep your mouths shut and suprise me when the game is ready to be relesed.<i><b></b></i><i></i><i></i>
#33 by "SpaceCadet"
2000-12-28 08:28:16
jackal33@home.com
I used to look forward to Tribes2 seeing as how I was literally addicted to TRIBES, I used to follow the screenshots and movies I even took a shot at getting in the beta......alas nothing. Now I pay no attention to any of it, I look forward to it and all but there is no point in making it a religion and letting pre-release hype get to me. If we all did that we would all be proud owners of Daikatana (sp?), I was suckered by Messiah but never again. :p
#34 by "Topaz"
2000-12-28 08:51:28
smith_mt@hotmail.com
But there's a new sucker born every minute.

When you have actual in-game screenshots it's not vapourware.


There were pictures for Prey but it never materialized as a full game.
#35 by "undule"
2000-12-28 10:23:28
undule@tampabay.rr.com
<b>#21</b> "WarrenMarshall" wrote...
<quote>Well, Tribes2 has become (in my eyes) the perfect example of how NOT to market a game. Flooding the net with daily movies, screenshots and previews for months on end is just fucking stupid. It's overkill. People are being turned off of the game because they're sick of hearing about it.</quote>


Oh i don't know, they are simply trying to hit folks that aren't hardcore gamers, hoping the hype -- correctly -- won't turn off the diehards. I rented THE CELL last night and it featured an ad for Tribes2 in the preview section. That was a first for me -- to see a game movie prior to a feature --  but I can see it working on some folk; the game looked mighty cool especially with the purdied up viddy footage. "Taking Team Play to it's Extreme" -- Rock!

But geesh, the textures are slack. 8)<i><b></b></i><i></i><i></i>
#36 by "undule"
2000-12-28 10:35:14
undule@tampabay.rr.com
<b>#31</b> "Xerxes" wrote...
<quote>Even though Tribes2's devlopment time isn't really longer than most games these days it just seem like its been allot longer since they started hyping it from the almost the very start. The Interenet can be a great tool to help get a game attention but it can also come back to bite you in the ass if you take it too far. </quote>

The beauty of this is that you will buy it anyway and so will all the other folk who normally would not . . . The crazy-azz hype of T2 is perfect. It's in your face, it's boasting more than it can possibly provide and as a consumer it becomes a constant, if unwanted, blip on your purchasing radar. You can decide to buy it or not but you will decide -- that is, <i>decide </i>rather than noddingly pass thier product, unknowing. That adds up to extra coins.<i><b></b></i><i></i><i></i>
#37 by "WarrenMarshall"
2000-12-28 10:38:38
warren@epicgames.com
undule (#36):
The beauty of this is that you will buy it anyway and so will all the other folk who normally would not . . . The crazy-azz hype of T2 is perfect. It's in your face, it's boasting more than it can possibly provide and as a consumer it becomes a constant, if unwanted, blip on your purchasing radar. You can decide to buy it or not but you will decide -- that is, <I>decide </I>rather than noddingly pass thier product, unknowing. That adds up to extra coins.

It's not all good though.  What you're saying may be true, but I might just pass on it to spite them.  I can't stand the deluge of screenshots and so on ... it also might cause people to see them as a marketing driven machine, and more people might be inclined to warez the game to deny them the money.

It's not just the volume of the marketing ... it's the way it's being done.  Screenshots.  Movies.  Previews.  All of these things are free.  It costs them nothing to shoot out 12 screenshots a day (except credibility of course).  If they were paying for billboards or TV spots or something, it wouldn't be so bad ... but they don't have to sell a single copy to make back marketing expenses done this way ...

---

Warren Marshall
Level Designer/Programmer/Corporate Shill
Epic Games (www.epicgames.com)<i><b></b></i><i></i><i></i>
#38 by "undule"
2000-12-28 10:55:09
undule@tampabay.rr.com
<b>#37</b> "WarrenMarshall" wrote...
<quote>It's not all good though. What you're saying may be true, but I might just pass on it to spite them. </quote>

Now, really, I doubt that. If the game spanks heartily then you will hear of it, and you will buy. And if in fact, the game is horrid and you hear of it -- you will buy it also, just because it's beautiful to see something ugly . . .

<quote>If they were paying for billboards or TV spots or something, it wouldn't be so bad ... </quote>

But this kind of internet ad overkill is a billboard. That's the horror and the goodliness of it. I confess that I'm a gamer of somewhat obsessive tendencies, that is, i play one or two games to death. Tribes2 does not beat me over the head, nor does it seem overhyped. I am obviously out of the loop in this regard but then imagine how many people who are even less involved than I will feel when they see Tribes2 whupped up before thier video rental of choice? I think it's brilliant and the objecions to it's apparently omninpresent pimpage are like pissing into the wind. The game industry can't rake in the cash it has been without exploding into the glut and whoredom that is modern day product pushing.

It's like gamers and game developers are prissy underground bands that want a critical and fan acclaim but really want to avoid the lights on madison ave. Aint gonna happen --- games are in the spotlight and moving ever closer to the hot center. Things will only become more bombastic.<i><b></b></i><i></i><i></i>
#39 by "BabiG"
2000-12-28 11:00:55
yankeebabu@india.com
I think they're doing this a) cause sierra/dynamix realizes that, unlike Tribes which was more of a sleeper hit, this has to be an AAA game and b) Tribes1 was underhyped, so they're over-compensating. It may not be the best way to market it, but I bet they're goal this time around was so that people's reason not to buy won't be "I never heard of it" which is what happened with tribes1 I'm sure.

Not saying its the greatest idea (Probably the blizzard model might work best for a highly anticipated sequel, although I think Warcraft 3 was announced a little too early), but I could understand why they're doing it...
#40 by "WarrenMarshall"
2000-12-28 11:15:09
warren@epicgames.com
undule (#38):
Tribes2 does not beat me over the head, nor does it seem overhyped.

It doesn't seem overhyped?  Then I have to ask what exactly would BE your definition of overhyped?  :)

It's like gamers and game developers are prissy underground bands that want a critical and fan acclaim but really want to avoid the lights on madison ave.

Uhh, maybe the gamers are like that ... Me?  I'll take the chicks, money and cars thanks.  ;)

---

Warren Marshall
Level Designer/Programmer/Corporate Shill
Epic Games (www.epicgames.com)<i><b></b></i><i></i><i></i>
#41 by "undule"
2000-12-28 11:27:17
undule@tampabay.rr.com
<b>#40</b> "WarrenMarshall" wrote...
<quote><quote>It's like gamers and game developers are prissy underground bands that want a critical and fan acclaim but really want to avoid the lights on madison ave. </quote>
Uhh, maybe the gamers are like that ... Me? I'll take the chicks, money and cars thanks. ;)</quote>

Then you should join an indie band and grow the dredlocks out! Code guys never land the babes, do they? Bail!

(PS - It helps if you're angry at your dad and you can bemoan this fact in hyena-falsetto)<i><b></b></i><i></i><i></i>
#42 by "EvilAsh"
2000-12-28 14:15:01
evilash@eviladam.com
Charlie why the vitriol?  The truth was too close for you in my post? Sorry bud, if you can't handle the heat... well don't dispense all the bs as your company has for the last 3 years.

So your making a demo.. when.. After the product has gone gold?  Or does the Dnf community have some say in how he final product might turn out? Or are you sooooo confident that DNF will be the second coming that you will have Dnf go gold..   release a demo after ward.. And then have everyone be very disappointed.. in bugs.. and other stupid gameplay issues that would have been properly eradicated with a demo test in the sense that allowed the Dnf community to give their opinion and save 3drealms some embarassment?

I mean wouldn't it just suck to wait 3+ years release a demo on a gold product .. have like 500k download the sucker.. and have the majority get turned off.. say..  This is what I was waiting for ?  This is a Big Deal???  Damn what a disapointment.

Remember you guys set yourselves up for this.. you have built your own cross you have to bear.  And if Dnf doesn't shatter these expectations...   it would have to be a disappointment..  DNF can't be a good game. GOOD is not enough.. it can't be an excellent title..

IT has to be  something on par with Ff9 for example.. it has to be something that fully utilizes the platform its released for.. that leaves people so pumped that they just played an amazing title.  Remember 3drealms is not some newbie developer.. this is not their first product.. So the expectations have to be higher. I don't think many at 3drealms realize the ahem.. cross they have to bear now.  They make gib comments.. but once push comes to shove and this puppy gets released.. and if it doesn't  Rock the world..  well and they get all kinds of criticisms..   I just hope I don't see all kinds of defensive reactions.. that suggest a  "Why is everyone so down on me? what did I do? "  

And charlie its easy to try and write me off with some 2 line statement.. but you know in your heart my statement and my point is valid. Your reaction  spoke volumes.  It irked you.. I am sorry if it did. But you only have yourself to blame. Just be honest about what you mess you guys have put yourself in... and move on.. Maybe maybe just maybe you can finish this game.. before Halo gets released.  ;)
#43 by "CharlieWiederhold"
2000-12-28 14:43:13
charliew@3drealms.com
EvilAsh, it's nice to have you back man. The world just isn't the quite same without your commentary on the world.

Again, when the demo is released (whenever that may be) you download it, play it, and decide if you want to buy it. We ask nothing more from you. If we release the demo and there are so many problems with it that you don't have fun, but the full game is going gold soon (or has already gone gold) then guess what, don't buy the game. Simple.

Then again, I'm pretty sure you've already made up your mind, and that you don't recognize the cross *you* bear should we actually deliver. Are we going to hear an apology from you or guys like you if we put the game out and it DOES rock the world? Or at the very least we put it out and you buy it and you are happy with it?

For some reason I *highly* doubt it.

Charlie Wiederhold
#44 by "BloodKnight"
2000-12-28 15:12:11
bloodknight@somethingawful.com
Here is a real Vapourware

http://www.glitchless.com

The MMORPG called Dawn.  The game where you can't respawn, you start out with nothing, you can emote anal sex, and also chuck fetuses from a catapult (One of the dev guys actually said yes to this when asked)

<i><b></b></i><i></i><i></i>
#45 by "EvilAsh"
2000-12-28 15:23:00
evilash@eviladam.com
Um Charlie.. I was one of those duke3d fans who.. downloaded the shareware... Played it enjoyed it.. and bought the retail release...Heck I went and even bought the add-on pack.

damn I must be some "Evil" Anti-3drealms person.  I bought  Shadow Warrior as well.


Holy crap..  How could I have bought all those products.. I am supposed to be an Anti-3drealms gamer.

woops guess you misjudged me.  I hope your willing to apologize when dnf gets released in the next millenium... And it doesn't end up being the Second Coming.. IT doesn't revolutionize the FPS genre.. It doesn't Shatter peoples expectations..  But then again.. I highly doubt you would apologize if Dnf is just a GOOd game.. Instead of a Incredibly Great one.

I bet dollars to donuts you would argue till doomsday its worth.  :)  

But its okay.. Charlie.. At least you  can always grab some more Evil Dead catchphrases.. by playing Hail To The King,Baby.

I hear your one-liners are in need of some evil Dead references..    

Good. Bad..  I am the guy making some logic.   If you can't hack it Charlie.. Tough Titties.

There are 2 things you can do about it..  Nothing.. And like it.
#46 by "1"
2000-12-28 15:31:35
primer55@g33k.net
There were pictures for Prey but it never materialized as a full game.


It's not vapourware. it's a canned project. . . Prey would have seen the light of day, had it not been cancelled.

_1!
#47 by "Intaglio"
2000-12-28 15:45:12
eric@gurutech.org
EvilAsh, DNF is going to sell a lot of copies for atleast one reason: Duke Nukem 3D was a great game. Did Quake 2 revolutionize the FPS genre? Was Quake 2 the greatest FPS game out at the time? Did Quake 2 give you goose bumps when you played it? No. Why did it sell so well then? It was the sequel to Quake.

Who cares how 3D Realms makes their game; its their game. In the end, marketing schematics really only account for a few thousand units; you can't *trick* people into buying your game. It will sell well if its good, if its not, it wont.

The only people I see complaining (indignantly, I might add) are those who seem to be so wrapped up in the hype that they simply can't wait. Guess what, EvilAsh: you got suckered by the Hype Machine. I could care less if DNF takes another two years for development; I'll most likely buy it without even reading a review, and so will many, many other gamers. I've done it before and been burned (Ultima 9), but I've done it before and been rewarded (Baldur's Gate 2, Jedi Knight, etc.).

Sitting on your soapbox and telling 3D Realms that they're not going to sell any copies because of the way they've marketed their game only adds to the hype.

Intaglio
#48 by "player11"
2000-12-28 16:20:52
thrawnage@bigpond.com
<quote>It's not vapourware. it's a canned project. . . Prey would have seen the light of day, had it not been cancelled.</quote>

Prey was canned because it was vaporware.
#49 by "RebPizer"
2000-12-28 17:23:30
rebpizer@yahoo.com
Tribes 2 isn't the only one that's been hyped too much by the gaming press.  I swear to God, if I see another screenshot, preview, movie, or interview regarding Black and White, I'm gonna puke.  How much more can Peter Molyneaux say about it?  

Giants was getting that way too.
#50 by "random"
2000-12-28 17:26:47
random1@speakeasy.org
Warcraft 3 isn't late, it isn't vaporware.  It is probably in the can, sitting on the shelf.

If you look closely at blizzard's record, you'll note that stuff that "appears" to be late gets released right after their current breadwinner starts losing market share.

Warcraft3 will hit the shelves after people stop buying starcraft and its add-ons.

This is the reverse of the traditional publishing scheme of 'push it out ASAP', perhaps other companies should study it and note its success.  Supply and demand...  It especially works in the RTS realm, where people don't expect the latest/greatest 3d tech enhancements in the game.  These titles can be held and not worry so much about being outdated tech when they do get released.
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