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T O P I C
Spyware losing ground
December 11th 2000, 09:38 CET by Andy

So-called 'spyware' software, which generally poses no more of a security risk than a banner ad on a web site, is a long-time pet hate of online privacy groups. Now it seems that all the bad press is taking its toll...

Back in October, we touched on a story about the TV listings program DigiGuide. Its use of built-in advertising was the backdrop to a bigger story about freedom of speech and the effect of libel laws on UK ISPs.

Last week, the company behind DigiGuide, Gipsy Media, announced that future versions will go back to the traditional shareware model. Users will have to either pay, or put up with a nag screen.

There are several reasons behind the move, according to the announcement, such as "significant difficulties with all offline/online advertising solutions that we have tried", plans to have PC manufacturers and ISPs distribute DigiGuide, and what is described as "overwhelming popularity" of the software.

Another reason for dropping the adverts is explained:

Bad press and bad consumer view: Advertising solutions of any type or origin have had a lot of bad press over the last year. No matter what solution we produce the same bad press will follow us around. This is very unfortunate but there simply is nothing that can be done about it. Advertising solutions for offline applications need certain functions and those functions will always upset certain groups.

Naturally, this will be seen as a token kill for campaigners against spyware.

The tone of the explanation suggests that, as they have made clear in the past, Gipsy Media is irritated by the complaints and scaremongering of "certain groups", but those groups have now got what they want.

So, a victory for online activists, or just a kick in the teeth for small developers?
C O M M E N T S
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#1 by "Preacher"
2000-12-11 09:42:33
preacher@unreality.org
:)
#2 by "WarrenMarshall"
2000-12-11 09:45:05
warren@epicgames.com
Andy (#0):
So, a victory for online activists, or just a kick in the teeth for small developers?

It's a victory.  Banner ads in applications are irritating.  A nag screen sucks, but it's a lot better than seeing a dancing banner ad while I'm trying to use a piece of software.  

I seriously doubt anyone actually clicked banners from within applications anyway.  I know I never would on principal alone ... I get enough of that crap on the web, don't bring it into my applications as well.

---

Warren Marshall
Level Designer/Programmer/Corporate Shill
Epic Games (www.epicgames.com)<i><b></b></i><i></i><i></i>
#3 by "Dethstryk"
2000-12-11 09:55:57
jemartin@tcainternet.com
<b>WarrenMarshall wrote in post #2:</b>
<quote>It's a victory. Banner ads in applications are irritating. A nag screen sucks, but it's a lot better than seeing a dancing banner ad while I'm trying to use a piece of software. </quote>
I don't mind having banner ads in my applications, it's just that the only problem is that they might be spyware. Good, honest advertising (is that possible?) I have no problem with. Hell, the software author has to pay for his dinner, right?


--
Dethstryk
#4 by "WarrenMarshall"
2000-12-11 10:00:13
warren@epicgames.com
Dethstryk (#3):
I don't mind having banner ads in my applications, it's just that the only problem is that they might be spyware. Good, honest advertising (is that possible?) I have no problem with. Hell, the software author has to pay for his dinner, right?

Somehow it happened in years gone by without the use of banner ads.  I personally find them very annoying and distracting.  They don't endear your app to me ... they make me want to use something else.

---

Warren Marshall
Level Designer/Programmer/Corporate Shill
Epic Games (www.epicgames.com)<i><b></b></i><i></i><i></i>
#5 by "Gunp01nt"
2000-12-11 10:33:08
supersimon33@hotmail.com
I think this is a great victory; the internet is getting too commercial all the time. It's about time the endless adds and banners are put to a stop.

Besides, everyone knows: if you follow a banner, you're always ending up at a site which requires payment to view...so no-one ever clicks those things...
Well, except those horny guys if they see a "horny teens all the time" banner...:-)
#6 by "Dethstryk"
2000-12-11 10:39:09
jemartin@tcainternet.com
<b>WarrenMarshall wrote in post #4:</b>
<quote>Somehow it happened in years gone by without the use of banner ads. I personally find them very annoying and distracting. They don't endear your app to me ... they make me want to use something else.</quote>
You must have had some bad run-ins with some horribly executed advertising in software. ;)

<b>Gunp01nt wrote in post #5:</b>
<quote>Well, except those horny guys if they see a "horny teens all the time" banner...:-)</quote>
I resent that! :)


--
Dethstryk
#7 by "FadedGlory"
2000-12-11 11:45:36
gam77@dial.pipex.com
Morn,
  wtf is up with Netscape and PC ? When I click the headline for this story, Netscape GPFs. I've got IE, but it's still a pain.

Fade.
#8 by "Foogla"
2000-12-11 13:04:15
Foogla@Somethingawful.com
re #7: It's CSS2. I learned that the hard way too.

re #2: You just botched the perfect chance to replicate one of my favorite "First!/Second!" - post from PC v3. :(
#9 by "Andy"
2000-12-11 13:37:31
andy@meejahor.com
<b>Foogla</b> (#8):
<quote>
re #2: You just botched the perfect chance to replicate one of my favorite "First!/Second!" - post from PC v3. :(
</quote>
When CRC posted ":)" and Hulka posted ":("? Or the other way round.

Yep, that was cute.
#10 by "Dethstryk"
2000-12-11 13:38:58
jemartin@tcainternet.com
<b>Andy wrote in post #9:</b>
<quote>Yep, that was cute.</quote>
Like, schoolgirl skirt cute or what? I'm lost. ;)


--
Dethstryk
#11 by "Morn"
2000-12-11 15:01:48
morn@planetcrap.com http://www.planetcrap.com
FadedGlory (#7):
wtf is up with Netscape and PC ? When I click the headline for this story, Netscape GPFs. I've got IE, but it's still a pain.

No problem here... Netscape 6.0 and Mozilla 0.6.

- Morn
<i><b></b></i><i></i><i></i>
#12 by "Morn"
2000-12-11 15:14:50
morn@planetcrap.com http://www.planetcrap.com
Andy (#0):
So-called 'spyware' software, which generally poses no more of a security risk than a banner ad on a web site, is a long-time pet hate of online privacy groups.

If I remember correctly, the big problem with this 'spyware' wasn't that it displayed ads, but rather that the advertising components remained installed on your system after uninstalling the ad-supported software, and allegedly kept reporting data to the ad company's server.

On a slightly related note, in the German <a href="http://www.bigbrotheraward.de/2000/">Big Brother Award 2000</a> (no, not related to the TV show) the Apache Consortium won an award for neglecting privacy by having Apache log IP addresses in its HTTP request log by default. IP addresses may soon be <a href="http://www.golem.de/0011/11090.html">considered to be private information</a> here in Germany, making things difficult for ISPs and webmasters who need the IP data for usage statistics or security reasons (see this site).

So, a victory for online activists, or just a kick in the teeth for small developers?

I never understood why developers were desperate enough to put banner ads into their programs. The banner ad market started crashing quite a while ago, and even if it had not, they could have figured out themselves that it wasn't going to work. Seriously, <b>who looks at or even clicks on advertising banners in their download manager</b>, an application which is usually running minimized? This entire idea has been faulty right from the beginning.

- Morn
<i><b></b></i><i></i><i></i>
#13 by "Kallisti"
2000-12-11 15:49:17
kallisti@uswest.net
Speaking of banners... isn't CrapSpy going to get banners at some point?<i><b></b></i><i></i><i></i>
#14 by "Milamber"
2000-12-11 15:54:29
milamber@amoeba.com.au
*slap*

Don't bring it up<i><b></b></i><i></i><i></i>
#15 by "WarrenMarshall"
2000-12-11 17:42:11
warren@epicgames.com
Dethstryk (#6):
You must have had some bad run-ins with some horribly executed advertising in software. ;)

How is it possible to implement it well?  The bottom line is the dancing, animated banner has to be on my screen (and in my face - the nature of advertising) while I'm trying to use the program.  Doesn't seem to be a way to possibly implement that well.

Andy (#9):
When CRC posted ":)" and Hulka posted ":("? Or the other way round.

Yep, that was cute.

I was posting at the same time he was proving his idiocy, so I didn't get the chance, sorry.  :)

Kallisti (#13):
Speaking of banners... isn't CrapSpy going to get banners at some point?

If it does ... seriously, I might just stop using it.  Having to see a banner dancing around in the corner of my eye while I'm trying to read 50+ new posts or whatever would drive me nuts.  :-/

---

Warren Marshall
Level Designer/Programmer/Corporate Shill
Epic Games (www.epicgames.com)<i><b></b></i><i></i><i></i>
#16 by "superion"
2000-12-11 18:21:34
superion@spacemoose.com
i use download accelerator plus, which has banners. i really dont even notice them anymore.

i use a 2nd pc to to split my dsl, and on that pc i also run naviscope (www.naviscope.com) as a http proxy, which filters out not only banners, but can also filter things like referer, user agent, flash, popups, embedded sounds, javascript, and other misc annoying things. i highly recommend it.

my naviscope stats are 24,332 ads blocked, this is over 4~ months i think, with 2 people using it.
#17 by "RyslinANDIndigo"
2000-12-11 18:48:53
ryslinmoon@yahoo.com
banners are going bye bye YEA!!
i cant say that enough YEA!!!

YEA YEA YEA YEA YEA YEA YEA!...
on a personal note ...i regret deeply that this also is the downfall of the free isps..

sigh
#18 by "Craig"
2000-12-11 21:06:36
craigl@globalnet.co.uk
<b>WarrenMarshall</b> (#15):
<quote>If it does ... seriously, I might just stop using it. Having to see a banner dancing around in the corner of my eye while I'm trying to read 50+ new posts or whatever would drive me nuts. :-/</quote>
Banners will be in the topics list window. So when you're reading a topic you won't be annoyed. Remember: the banners would be for the site you are using, not for CrapSpy.

<b>Craig</b><i><b></b></i><i></i><i></i>
#19 by "BloodKnight"
2000-12-11 21:07:37
bloodknight@somethingawful.com
I don't think people had this victory because of banner ads.  They won because it was some invasion of privacy.

spyware is a nifty little program that was installed without your permission and 'spies' on you.  The joy of people knowing your name without permission or having knowledge on what you download each time.



<i><b></b></i><i></i><i></i>
#20 by "BloodKnight"
2000-12-11 21:08:02
bloodknight@somethingawful.com
Morn, when will we be able to change our e-mail?
<i><b></b></i><i></i><i></i>
#21 by "Morn"
2000-12-11 22:42:21
morn@planetcrap.com http://www.planetcrap.com
RyslinANDIndigo (#17):
YEA YEA YEA YEA YEA YEA YEA!...
on a personal note ...i regret deeply that this also is the downfall of the free isps..

And a lot of free websites.

- Morn
<i><b></b></i><i></i><i></i>
#22 by "Morn"
2000-12-11 22:43:19
morn@planetcrap.com http://www.planetcrap.com
BloodKnight (#20):
Morn, when will we be able to change our e-mail?

Soon-ish-ly-esque! ;)

- Morn
<i><b></b></i><i></i><i></i>
#23 by "BloodKnight"
2000-12-11 23:00:13
bloodknight@somethingawful.com
<b>Morn</b> (#22):
<quote>Soon-ish-ly-esque! ;)
</quote>

Too blinking long eh!
<i><b></b></i><i></i><i></i>
#24 by "Frijoles"
2000-12-11 23:22:03
aarona@cc.usu.edu
<i>Online advertising company DoubleClick Inc. warned Monday that it would miss fourth-quarter earnings estimates and instead post a loss.</i>

This is over on cnnfn.com. It makes my heart warm to know that DoubleClick is suffering. ahh.. the holidays aren't so bad afterall.
#25 by "RyslinANDIndigo"
2000-12-12 00:30:22
ryslinmoon@yahoo.com
sigh...
yeah the websites too is not nessisarlly a good thing..
but it will make user ISP's accually offer a decent rate for webhost.
hopefully>?
#26 by "BloodKnight"
2000-12-12 02:04:50
bloodknight@somethingawful.com
<b>Frijoles</b> (#24):
<quote>ahh.. the holidays aren't so bad afterall.</quote>

Lots of snow in Mississauga EH

Hope there is no school tomorrow EH
<i><b></b></i><i></i><i></i>
#27 by "Barneyque"
2000-12-12 02:38:28
barneyque@hotmail.com
<b>#26</b> "BloodKnight" wrote...
<quote><B>Frijoles</B> (#24):

<quote>ahh.. the holidays aren't so bad afterall.</quote>

Lots of snow in Mississauga EH

Hope there is no school tomorrow EH
</quote>


Can't complain about the snow in Mississauga.  It prompted my boss to send everyone home early today.  I have a cool boss though.  <i><b></b></i><i></i><i></i>
#28 by "WarrenMarshall"
2000-12-12 03:25:04
warren@epicgames.com
Craig (#18):
Banners will be in the topics list window. So when you're reading a topic you won't be annoyed. Remember: the banners would be for the site you are using, not for CrapSpy.

Oh I understand that ... but that doesn't stop them from flashing and dancing and annoying me.  ;)

Frijoles (#24):
This is over on cnnfn.com. It makes my heart warm to know that DoubleClick is suffering. ahh.. the holidays aren't so bad afterall.

No kidding.  :)

---

Warren Marshall
Level Designer/Programmer/Corporate Shill
Epic Games (www.epicgames.com)<i><b></b></i><i></i><i></i>
#29 by "toadwarrior"
2000-12-12 07:07:36
toadw@uplink.net
Software developers made money before. The only people that'll lose out are those with sub par programs that no one will buy so they gotta sell advertising.<i><b></b></i><i></i><i></i>
#30 by "WarrenMarshall"
2000-12-12 07:40:47
warren@epicgames.com
toadwarrior (#29):
Software developers made money before. The only people that'll lose out are those with sub par programs that no one will buy so they gotta sell advertising.

I wonder how many are actually making money off of in-program banners anyway.  Who's clicking them?

---

Warren Marshall
Level Designer/Programmer/Corporate Shill
Epic Games (www.epicgames.com)<i><b></b></i><i></i><i></i>
#31 by "the_reformed_pianist"
2000-12-12 07:48:49
pianist@canada.com
I only click the ones where you have to punch a monkey.
#32 by "The_Punisher"
2000-12-12 07:52:15
mario_lowang@hotmail.com
[2] WarrenMarshall (new!)

It's a victory. Banner ads in applications are irritating. A nag screen sucks, but it's a lot better than seeing a dancing banner ad while I'm trying to use a piece of software.

I seriously doubt anyone actually clicked banners from within applications anyway. I know I never would on principal alone ... I get enough of that crap on the web, don't bring it into my applications as well.
---


Agreed.... but....

I see this trend growing and expanding in "proper" games in the future. Once it reaches a particular stage it will be too unbearable for many people especially if the titles in question are good. And what am I talking about ? For now what FIFA 2001 ('et all) and most other sports games are doing is fine. Having the proper names and logos placed as adds within the game world is fine. AS IT STANDS TODAY!! But I can guarantee you that in future releases their scope will expand beyond mere still and moving images. That will be when we will start to cry.

And let's not forget that in many cases (if not all) these "sponsors" GET paid. But do these sponsored games cost less ?? Hell NO!! So the cunt makers keep the sponsorship money AND our full price profit also. Like I posted in the abandonware subject in the future SOME games will be free or almost free due to this kind (or similar) of marketing scheme.

And if a developer is close to releasing a title but is thinking of canceling due to financial stress and a "sponsor" comes in saying that: "If you place my logo and shit all over the game world, I'll pay $$$", enough to finish and distribute the game what developer could/would refuse ?

Even if not in financial trouble what developer would refuse a million dollars to place logos and banners and shit in a cool game ? It's all about money. If it wasn't why don't the "super" developers like Blizzard and Westwood (and many more) just ONCE make a game and release it FREE, except for a minor distribution fee ?? Why doesn't Blizzard release the add-on for Diablo II free of charge as a "thank you" for the last five years where it made XX millions with only a few games ? Not because they couldn't afford it financially, but because ........ ??? Origin did it with the WC Secret Missions albeit it wasn't really a full game and all that but at least they tried.

In fact SOME games are NOTHING more that actual advertising tools. A few of the games used in such a way are the Snowboarding, Skate boarding, and Sierra's Skiing crap games that are full of real life merchandise, where you can buy direct from within the game with a c/c and an internet connection, etc.... These advertisers even commissioned and bankrolled some of these games in some instances.

They spend more time on making Nascar's cars look "authentic" then working on gameplay issues. By authentic they really mean:"Make sure that people can really see that McDonald's logo nice and shiny". They get paid for it (or will in the future) and we get no discounts but more importantly crappier games.

But as I sit here at my shit PC I kid you not when I say: "I await the day when I will see tampon adds featured in AAA titles" Feminine hygiene is here to stay. ;-)))


LONG LIVE THE BLEEDERS!!!
#33 by "the_reformed_pianist"
2000-12-12 08:00:04
pianist@canada.com
http://www.bostonherald.com/news/columnists/carr12032000.htm
#34 by "the_reformed_pianist"
2000-12-12 08:01:13
pianist@canada.com
Hey wait a second...... that URL is completely irrelevant.
#35 by "WarrenMarshall"
2000-12-12 08:32:36
warren@epicgames.com
The_Punisher (#32):
If it wasn't why don't the "super" developers like Blizzard and Westwood (and many more) just ONCE make a game and release it FREE, except for a minor distribution fee ?? Why doesn't Blizzard release the add-on for Diablo II free of charge as a "thank you" for the last five years where it made XX millions with only a few games ? Not because they couldn't afford it financially, but because ........ ???

Because ... they're a business?  It seems to me you're going to have to wake up to the fact soon that game development is a real business, and companies are here to make money.  A free add-on?  Do you have any idea what that costs?  Sure, Blizzard could afford it, but why should they?  I don't mean to sound like a prick, but come on...

And yes, I know Epic did a few add-on map packs and such for free, and that's great.  That's a gift.  It shouldn't be expected.  If a company chooses to do that, that's a bonus.  Just because a company makes a truckload of money off of it's game, that doesn't obligate them to do anything.

They spend more time on making Nascar's cars look "authentic" then working on gameplay issues. By authentic they really mean:"Make sure that people can really see that McDonald's logo nice and shiny". They get paid for it (or will in the future) and we get no discounts but more importantly crappier games.

Well, honestly, why should you get a discount?  Did you do anything to get that McDonald's contract?  Did you do any work to put it in the game?  Bottom line, with or without that logo, your contribution to the process is the same : you buy the game, you play it, you have a good time.


But I understand what you're saying about the overall marketing thing ... and I feel the same way.  It'll go too far.  It always does.  People just don't know when to stop ...

---

Warren Marshall
Level Designer/Programmer/Corporate Shill
Epic Games (www.epicgames.com)<i><b></b></i><i></i><i></i>
#36 by "The_Punisher"
2000-12-12 09:01:15
mario_lowang@hotmail.com
[35] WarrenMarshall (new!)

""They spend more time on making Nascar's cars look "authentic" then working on gameplay issues. By authentic they really mean:"Make sure that people can really see that McDonald's logo nice and shiny". They get paid for it (or will in the future) and we get no discounts but more importantly crappier games.""

"Well, honestly, why should you get a discount? Did you do anything to get that McDonald's contract? Did you do any work to put it in the game? Bottom line, with or without that logo, your contribution to the process is the same : you buy the game, you play it, you have a good time."



Ok.... I was trying to make a point regarding HEAVY advertising - the same as FREE TO AIR TV, mkkkkkk ???? You DO watch it sometimes, don't YOU ?? We don't pay jack shit (except for it's power consumption) to watch those stations BECAUSE of the advertising revenue the stations make from commercials. Why should such FUTURE games be any different ? Sure RIGHT NOW their ways are not the same so a game can not YET be completely supported by advertising alone.... but what of the future ? Do you think that WHEN (not IF) that time comes these publishers will change their model from getting paid from two sources to just one ???? But hopefully they will be FORCED to do so by people power and maybe even some crazy(?) laws. There is such a thing as PROFITEERING.*

Oh, my dear sweet Warren.... My dear boy..... What if I as the PURCHASER of such said game do NOT want to see McDonald's adds and shit ? Will I have a chance to turn them off ? Or even replace them with blank "skins" ? I think not. So you still want me to buy your game and be FORCED to watch these sponsor's products/names when I as the consumer do NOT ? Where's that great American dream ? CHOICE ??
I, personally will look past some of these advertising schemes in future games. But many people will not. ....or they may think of a warez version as an alternative with more vigor then before.







* (That which I have described doesn't necessarily meet the required definition criteria for profiteering. It's descriptive mention was a mere balance indicator between my state of mind concerning future possible interpretations of such "sponsorship" actions and their correlation to FREE games "in the future" as mentioned beforehand)
#37 by "WarrenMarshall"
2000-12-12 09:09:13
warren@epicgames.com
The_Punisher (#36):
Ok.... I was trying to make a point regarding HEAVY advertising - the same as FREE TO AIR TV, mkkkkkk ????

Oh good, now we get to move into sarcasm and stupid comments as opposed to actually making points.  Wonderful.

You DO watch it sometimes, don't YOU ??

No, I don't.  Don't have a TV.  I haven't seen a need for one since I got rid of it a few years back during a move.

Oh, my dear sweet Warren.... My dear boy.....

Good one.  Really put me in my place.  *sigh*

What if I as the PURCHASER of such said game do NOT want to see McDonald's adds and shit ? Will I have a chance to turn them off ? Or even replace them with blank "skins" ? I think not. So you still want me to buy your game and be FORCED to watch these sponsor's products/names when I as the consumer do NOT ? Where's that great American dream ? CHOICE ??

What if you don't like the skins on the cars?  Or the models?  Or the scenery?  Or the tracks?  That's the way they made the game.  Deal ...

When you go to the movies, and you see that gratuitous product placement of a Pepsi can on a table do you walk out and demand your money back?  You should.  You had no choice of whether to look at that advertising or not.  Those bastards!

, personally will look past some of these advertising schemes in future games. But many people will not. ....or they may think of a warez version as an alternative with more vigor then before.

Might be how the justify it sure, but a McDonalds logo on a car is hardly a valid reason for stealing the end product.

---

Warren Marshall
Level Designer/Programmer/Corporate Shill
Epic Games (www.epicgames.com)<i><b></b></i><i></i><i></i>
#38 by "Milamber"
2000-12-12 09:15:26
milamber@amoeba.com.au
You want a new topic, have a look at this: <a href="http://www.zdnet.com/gamespot/filters/products/screenindex/0,11104,450386,00.html">http://www.zdnet.com/gamespot/filters/products/screenindex/0,11104,450386,00.html</a>. How do you guys feel about game companies doctoring their shots? I don't about you but to me looking at that says that they wanted to get the preview with Gamespot and they needed some shots but they hadn't implemented models into the game. Simple, just rip the models from your modelling program and insert them with Photoshop. Nasty.<i><b></b></i><i></i><i></i>
#39 by "the_reformed_pianist"
2000-12-12 10:26:55
pianist@canada.com
It might not be doctored, they might actually be using sprites in the game at this stage... why, I don't know.
#40 by "the_reformed_pianist"
2000-12-12 10:30:18
pianist@canada.com
Oh lord in heaven, you mean the playermodels. I just noticed that. Good god. Holy Jesus Christ of Nazareth.

That is hideous.
#41 by "Rambar"
2000-12-12 12:43:05
rambar@homegettingablowjob.com
Because ... they're a business?  It seems to me you're going to have to wake up to the fact soon that game development is a real business, and companies are here to make money.  A free add-on?  Do you have any idea what that costs?  Sure, Blizzard could afford it, but why should they?  I don't mean to sound like a prick, but come on...


This sounds earily like the response I give other employes at my job asking me to make them a pizza...  I'm not sure they're smart enough to make the correct logical conclusions to understand why I'm saying this.

[38] Milamber:  I'm more disturbed by the fact that it's using the LithTech engine.
--
Rambar
#42 by "BloodKnight"
2000-12-12 12:48:14
bloodknight@somethingawful.com
<b>Milamber</b> (#38):
<quote>You want a new topic, have a look at this: <A href="http://www.zdnet.com/gamespot/filters/products/screenindex/0,11104,450386,00.html">http://www.zdnet.com/gamespot/filters/products/screenindex/0,11104,450386,00.html</A>. How do you guys feel about game companies doctoring their shots? I don't about you but to me looking at that says that they wanted to get the preview with Gamespot and they needed some shots but they hadn't implemented models into the game. Simple, just rip the models from your modelling program and insert them with Photoshop. Nasty.</quote>

No offence to whoever the developer is, but that looks like the biggest piece of shit I have ever saw

Are those buildings?


<i><b></b></i><i></i><i></i>
#43 by "BloodKnight"
2000-12-12 12:49:44
bloodknight@somethingawful.com
Shit one more thing

Canada 0wnz j00 eh!  Snow eh!  SCHOOLS OUT

Time to do something all day
!<i><b></b></i><i></i><i></i>
#44 by "None1a"
2000-12-12 18:20:45
none1a@home.com
<b>The_Punisher</b> (#36):
<quote>Oh, my dear sweet Warren.... My dear boy..... What if I as the PURCHASER of such said game do NOT want to see McDonald's adds and shit ? Will I have a chance to turn them off ? </quote>


Then they probably shouldn't buy a fricking Nascar game. <i><b></b></i><i></i><i></i>
#45 by "Kitrack"
2000-12-12 20:01:08
JBHoldridgeII@vt.edu
On 12/12/00 at 12:20:45 PM, None1a opened his/her mouth and said (#44):
<quote>Then they probably shouldn't buy a fricking Nascar game. </quote>
Not the best of choices, to be honest.  Essentially, they shouldn't buy <i>that</i> Nascar game, and instead buy one that doesn't have the ads or does have the ability to have one.  That presupposes that Nascar would have <i>two</i> Nascar games available for the same platform, of course.  That would be the main sticking point.
As an aside, if you bought a Nascar game without advertised-up cars, would it really <i>be</i> a Nascar game?
--
It cultivates the mind, the spirit and the soul.  And we must always cultivate the soul.<i><b></b></i><i></i><i></i>
#46 by "None1a"
2000-12-12 20:38:20
none1a@home.com
<b>Kitrack</b> (#45):
<quote>As an aside, if you bought a Nascar game without advertised-up cars, would it really <I>be</I> a Nascar game?</quote>


Well you'd have to stick with the pre winton cup era (grand national time period), but your only game would be Nascar Legends (even then the fact that the cars where on the track at all was an ad)<i><b></b></i><i></i><i></i>
#47 by "Kitrack"
2000-12-12 22:16:49
JBHoldridgeII@vt.edu
On 12/12/00 at 2:38:20 PM, None1a opened his/her mouth and said (#46):
<quote>Well you'd have to stick with the pre winton cup era (grand national time period), but your only game would be Nascar Legends (even then the fact that the cars where on the track at all was an ad)</quote>
That's kinda my point-there would be no really purpose/mass appeal to a Nascar game without Nascar-esque cars; seems better to me to just purchase a racing game like the cruisin' USA series or the Rush series.
*shrug*
--
It cultivates the mind, the spirit and the soul.  And we must always cultivate the soul.<i><b></b></i><i></i><i></i>
#48 by "None1a"
2000-12-12 22:41:18
none1a@home.com
<b>Kitrack</b> (#47):
<quote>That's kinda my point-there would be no really purpose/mass appeal to a Nascar game without Nascar-esque cars; seems better to me to just purchase a racing game like the cruisin' USA series or the Rush series.</quote>


That was mine as well, sports in any form have made advertising part of the sport. If I'm playing at Bbal game there had better be ad banners around the court and I had better be able to play in companyname stadium, those are part of the game get rid of them or make them an option and it's no longer the game (Nascar so expertly brought up by Punisher just serves as the most exterme example of it just not being the same with out those ads).

Now on to spyware, I really wish all of these privacy groups would take the time to find out if "spyware" is really spying at all. I have yet to see any group show any thing that would sucjest this is acctauly happening (and no simply being installed with out me knowing about it does not say the programs are sending infomation about me). <i><b></b></i><i></i><i></i>
#49 by "Kitrack"
2000-12-12 22:47:03
JBHoldridgeII@vt.edu
On 12/12/00 at 4:41:18 PM, None1a opened his/her mouth and said (#48):
<quote>Now on to spyware, I really wish all of these privacy groups would take the time to find out if "spyware" is really spying at all. I have yet to see any group show any thing that would sucjest this is acctauly happening </quote>
IIRC:
<a href="http://grc.com/optout.htm">http://grc.com/optout.htm</a>
It's been a while since I read through it, but I recall the operator of the site mentioning that he used a debugger to step through a number of 'spyware' executables.
One of the problems is that, as a commercial source of income, the programs are closed source.  It makes it much, much more difficult for people to figure out what the hell is going on.
--
It cultivates the mind, the spirit and the soul.  And we must always cultivate the soul.<i><b></b></i><i></i><i></i>
#50 by "Paradox"
2000-12-13 02:38:56
sc_paradox@excite.com
Real quick like... what exactly are you losing out on by seeing in-game ads?  Also, does this apply just to games that occur while in the game state itself, or does it also apply to sponsorships?  So, if you were to get that same situation of Nascar and McDonalds, would it be quite as bad if there were a "Brought to you by McDonalds" splash when you launch the game?  What if id found themselves short on cash one day and had an nVidia icon on the starting menu screen of Quake 5?  Would it really cause enough strife in your experience that you would just return the game?

I mean, there are commercials on cable, too... you can't go hardly anywhere without running into some form of advertising.  Why should games, as the new media be any different?  So long as it doesn't actually effect the play of the game or the fun you have while playing it.  You might not even see the ads as they go flying by.  Does it really make that much of a difference if it means that the starving developer may someday return to make another great game?

Where does Need for Speed fall in?  Porche must have been paying some mega bucks.

-Paradox
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