PlanetCrap 6.0!
Front Page (ATOM) • Submission Bin (2) • ArchivesUsersLoginCreate Account
You are currently not logged in.
T O P I C
Over-rated OS for Dreamcast
December 8th 2000, 15:47 CET by Andy

This is either a Linux gaming story or just another example of clever hacking, depending on your perspective. But either way, Linux is now available on the Dreamcast...

It seems surprisingly easy, too. You need to download about 9Mb of files from DreamcastLinux.org (or the Zophar's Domain mirror), use them to burn a CD according to these instructions, and... that's it. Pop the CD in your Dreamcast and pretty soon you'll have a useless plastic box with a load of gibberish on the screen.

Cool stuff, eh?
C O M M E N T S
Home » Topic: Over-rated OS for Dreamcast

|«« - Previous Page - Next Page - »»|
#1 by "Frain"
2000-12-08 16:03:27
frain@bigfoot.com
wow, if it works just like my PC Linux, I'd probably be able to run all those cool linux games on my dreamcast...doh ;)

Frain
#2 by "AshRain"
2000-12-08 16:03:40
ikhier@wish.net
Too bad reformed-pianist
#3 by "asspennies"
2000-12-08 17:04:15
asspennies@somethingawful.com
I wonder if you could run a game server on your dreamcast...

(When the broadband attachment comes out, of course)
#4 by "Terata"
2000-12-08 18:52:08
jstatz@ravensoft.com
A friend was telling me a while back that apparently you can telnet to a dreamcast machine... you can't really do anything at that point, but you can connect.  This seems sort of the same.  =P
#5 by "szcx"
2000-12-08 19:23:47
nedocze@hotmail.com
there's no source available.  the Gnazi's will be screaming "GPL violation!" in no time.
#6 by "netgee"
2000-12-08 19:40:11
ryan@shiftclick.net
Totally off topic post: Today is morn's birthday.  Yay morn!
#7 by "Sgt_Hulka"
2000-12-08 19:55:28
rwaring@ameritech.net
Happy Birthday Morn!  Have a drink on me!
#8 by "Morn"
2000-12-08 19:56:19
morn@planetcrap.com http://www.planetcrap.com
netgee (#6):
Totally off topic post: Today is morn's birthday. Yay morn!


Aaaaaaaaah!

- Morn
#9 by "FritzTheCat"
2000-12-08 20:10:27
illuminati@zombieworld.com
Does this mean we will be seeing a horrible new creature emerge known as a "dreamcast weenie ?"

Happy BD Morn.
#10 by "Foogla"
2000-12-08 20:21:40
Foogla@Somethingawful.com
Herzlichen Glückwunsch! Weiter so! ;P
#11 by "Fortyseven_BTEG"
2000-12-08 21:20:21
47@apple2.com
Congratulations on bringing yourself down to the level of the anti-"Winbl0ze" kiddies with that topic.  

(Now where did my sense of humor go?  ... *rummage*)
#12 by "WarrenMarshall"
2000-12-08 21:31:33
warren@epicgames.com
szcx (#5):
there's no source available. the Gnazi's will be screaming "GPL violation!" in no time.

LOL ... "Gnazi's" ... hahaha...

---

Warren Marshall
Level Designer/Programmer/Corporate Shill
Epic Games (www.epicgames.com)
#13 by "code404"
2000-12-08 21:50:41
code404@home.com
Fortyseven_BTEG (#11):
Congratulations on bringing yourself down to the level of the anti-"Winbl0ze" kiddies with that topic.


Hey rember this is _ANDY_ its step up for him. Normally he would claim it was part of some evil plot against gamers in general and him specifically. This is downright "balanced and reasoned" for him ...now so long as he keeps posting porn and taking his meds he might actually become a helpful productive member of society! ...sometime in 2047
#14 by "Crusader"
2000-12-08 22:48:38
crusader@linuxgames.com

wow, if it works just like my PC Linux, I'd probably be able to run all those cool linux games on my dreamcast...doh ;)


Oh, you mean like:

Civilization: Call to Power
Descent 3
The many incarnations of Doom
Heavy Gear II
Heretic II
Heroes of Might and Magic III
Jagged Alliance II
Myth II: Soulblighter
Quake
Quake II
Quake III Arena
Railroad Tycoon II: Gold Edition
Shogo: Mobile Armor Division
SimCity 3000
Sin
Soldier of Fortune
Terminus
Theocracy
Unreal Tournament

And soon:
Alpha Centauri
Deus Ex
Mindrover
Rune
Tribes 2
Neverwinter Nights
... and probably some others I'm forgetting.

Yes, the Linux on a Dreamcast is nothing more than a cool hack, but
A) it demonstrates the versatility of the platform
B) that anyone can adapt Linux to whatever they see fit, instead of some monolithic entity
#15 by "ChrisJohnson"
2000-12-08 22:54:55
cjohnson27@hotmail.com
<quote>that anyone can adapt Linux to whatever they see fit, instead of some monolithic entity </quote>

Anything they see fit, except maybe, oh I dunno, something profitable...
#16 by "ChrisJohnson"
2000-12-08 23:00:56
cjohnson27@hotmail.com
And before any Gnazi's (great term, that) bitches about my previous comment, to prove the point I was making, I now quote Messr. John Carmack from Slashdot:

<quote>We are going to continue to support linux in future products, but unfortunately it doesn't look like a strong business case can be made for it. The mac version outsold the linux version by quite a bit, and even that didn't hit 5% of the windows sales. </quote>
#17 by "Crusader"
2000-12-08 23:13:32
crusader@linuxgames.com
Chris, you're missing the point.

Not everyone is motivated by the need to acquire little green slips of paper; the reason that the DC Linux hack was made, the reason Carmack codes for Linux (hell, he helped improve several drivers for Linux), hell, the reason Linux itself was made, was because someone thought it'd be a Fun/Cool/Right Thing to Do.

When you fire up a game of (whatever), or renovate a car, or any other hobby, is your first thought "How is this going to make me $$$"?

Yes, that will always be the focus of the industry, to generate revenue. But there are some developers who port or develop for Linux just because they fucking feel like it. :)
#18 by "ChrisJohnson"
2000-12-08 23:37:07
cjohnson27@hotmail.com
Okay, granted, but my point (and I made it shoddily, I suppose), is that there are so very few that actually USE linux (granted, because not only is it beyond most, but that many people are sheep who go the road more travelled), that to use it, hack it in for other platforms, etc is't really the right thing to do.... it's just the elitist thing to do.
#19 by "Sgt_Hulka"
2000-12-08 23:49:10
rwaring@ameritech.net
http://www.icebox.com/viewer_frameset.asp?show=213&episode=402
#20 by "deadcoil"
2000-12-08 23:56:21
deadcoil@hotmail.com
Yes, but what's so cool about it?

<B>Seriously.</B>  Yeah, they got Linux on the DC.  Wow.  And I'm not kidding here, but that's pretty formidable.

At the same time, let me make one of my patented analogies:

Say you have rabbit and a tortoise.  You want to put the Rabbit's Body into the Tortoise's Skin.  So you find a way to keep the coney alive while you skin it and give it cosmetic surgery.  You remove the skeleton, most of the muscles, and the brain of the turtle.  You stuff the Rabbit in.  Sutures later, it miraculously heals.  

Well, woo hoo.  You now have a Rartle.  But the damned thing can't do anything that a tortoise does, and it can't do anything that a Rabbit does.  It's useless.

Actually, both animals are fairly useless anyhoo.  But I think you get the idea.
#21 by "code404"
2000-12-09 00:04:37
code404@home.com
Fun is elitist now?
#22 by "GhostinmyShell"
2000-12-09 00:15:38
ghostinmyshell@triad.rr.com
Well it might be easier to get a mp3/vcd/divx player now for the DC...

The obvious reason this was done is so the author could *ahem* copy games I bet...
#23 by "the_reformed_pianist"
2000-12-09 00:49:48
pianist@canada.com
TWENTY-THIRD POST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
#24 by "datafox"
2000-12-09 03:05:11
datafox@yahoo.com
Blah.

I need a new game.
#25 by "WarrenMarshall"
2000-12-09 07:40:34
warren@epicgames.com
Crusader (#14):
Yes, the Linux on a Dreamcast is nothing more than a cool hack, but
A) it demonstrates the versatility of the platform
B) that anyone can adapt Linux to whatever they see fit, instead of some monolithic entity

I'm still with Chet.  If the revolution involves me having to recompile my kernel, you can count me right the fuck out.

Crusader (#17):
Yes, that will always be the focus of the industry, to generate revenue. But there are some developers who port or develop for Linux just because they fucking feel like it. :)

And then there are the rest of us, who need to make money so we can eat, pay rent, etc...  :)

code404 (#21):
Fun is elitist now?

No, but the attitude of the majority of the Gnazi's is.

---

Warren Marshall
Level Designer/Programmer/Corporate Shill
Epic Games (www.epicgames.com)
#26 by "WarrenMarshall"
2000-12-09 07:41:00
warren@epicgames.com
GhostinmyShell (#22):
The obvious reason this was done is so the author could *ahem* copy games I bet...

No no ... it was done because it was fun and the right thing to do.  ;)

---

Warren Marshall
Level Designer/Programmer/Corporate Shill
Epic Games (www.epicgames.com)
#27 by "Dreamspeaker"
2000-12-09 08:12:00
ashvin@babylonia.flatirons.org
WarrenMarshall wrote in #25...

I'm still with Chet. If the revolution involves me having to recompile my kernel, you can count me right the fuck out.

In that case, you'll be very happy to learn that you don't have to re-compile your kernel. I mean, you can if you want to, trimming out stuff that you don't need to squeeze a bit more performance out of your system, etc... but I'm running my workstation and about twenty other machines quite happily without having to perform a single kernel re-compile.

Linux really is productive, and quite easy to use. Honest :-)

~~
Ignie Ferroque,
Ash. - "Non Facete Nobis Calcitrare Vestrvm Perinævm"
#28 by "the_reformed_pianist"
2000-12-09 13:27:15
pianist@canada.com
Recompile THIS.
#29 by "superion"
2000-12-09 13:39:45
superion@spacemoose.com
#22, oh? must be right up your alley then.

and what could possibly be easier than a 100MBit Ethernet to Dreamcast cable with cd ripping software, which is what is used to 'rip' the GD-ROMS.
#30 by "player11"
2000-12-09 16:50:37
thrawnage@bigpond.com
Yeeehar! Get out the beers gents its time for an OS war!

*ahem* Linux et all by Programmers for Programmers. I'd love to use a non-MS OS I really would, really! So tell me Linux d00d's what does Linux offer a Gamer who plans to make a living out of the multimedia industry (Photoshop, Director, Dreamweaver, Bleh)? Anything? Ive used GIMP and that can suck my nuts for all I care and I dont even know if Linux has a 3D Modeling tool at all.

Im seriously all ears, though what new games come out on Linux other than the token QuakeEngineX UnrealEngineX ports. Sure I could use WINE only to have 1 in 5 programs work. What's my killer app?

And for the minorities:
MacOS: I use this pritty much every few days and I want to tear out my eyeballs out with fury. Its the little things that are different that drive you mad. "Hey Josh, You clicked on the desktop" "Did I? Fuck!". One button mice shaped like a Urinal Cake- pass!

Beos: Rocks my socks! If only it had some good apps and java I'd have it in a Duel Boot. Funny though considering how close it is to MacOS.


OT! Serious Sam Test 2 and Fallout Tactics on the 15th. W00000000P!
#31 by "GhostinmyShell"
2000-12-09 17:56:05
ghostinmyshell@triad.rr.com
#29 Why would I want DC games, I dont even have a system. Unless I need more coasters for my drinks...
#32 by "Dreamspeaker"
2000-12-09 21:45:33
ashvin@babylonia.flatirons.org
player11 wrote in #30...

Yeeehar! Get out the beers gents its time for an OS war!

How is this an OS war? I'm not saying anything about Windows, and I'm trying to convince Warren to use Linux. I'm just saying that Linux doesn't force you to do highly Unix-y things like kernel recompiles. It affords you the option, but it doesn't beat you over the head with it or anything...

I'd love to use a non-MS OS I really would, really! So tell me Linux d00d's what does Linux offer a Gamer who plans to make a living out of the multimedia industry (Photoshop, Director, Dreamweaver, Bleh)? Anything?

Admittedly, in some areas, Linux really lacks commercial application support. I'm quite fond of Gimp, but I obviously can't argue with someone who needs Photoshop and 3D Studio. It would be nice if Adobe would port Photoshop to the Unix world, but I can understand their decision not to do so. Then again, Photoshop running on an SGI workstation would be quite an impressive sight to behold.

...I dont even know if Linux has a 3D Modeling tool at all.

There's blender, and a couple of others. Admittedly, the selection is few and the quality somewhat marginal. However, I wouldn't be at all surprised to find SGI porting (and encouraging ports) of their 3D tools to Linux, given their interest in the OS.

Im seriously all ears, though what new games come out on Linux other than the token QuakeEngineX UnrealEngineX ports. Sure I could use WINE only to have 1 in 5 programs work. What's my killer app?

There are a fairish number of games being ported to Linux (see the list above). Still, point taken. If you need high-end commercial 3D modeling and image manipulation programs, Linux isn't up to the task at the moment. Check back once SGI has worked some porting magic.

Beos: Rocks my socks! If only it had some good apps and java I'd have it in a Duel Boot. Funny though considering how close it is to MacOS.

I like the concept of BeOS, but the operating system itself suffers from an rather exaggerated version of Linux's lack of application support. Until recently (with BONE), the network architecture has sucked (not to put too fine a point on it), and that has somewhat stifled the development of network applications. I hope this OS does well, but they really need to get more high-profile developers on board.

~~
Ignie Ferroque,
Ash. - "Non Facete Nobis Calcitrare Vestrvm Perinævm"
#33 by "WarrenMarshall"
2000-12-09 23:16:38
warren@epicgames.com
player11 (#30):
Linux et all by Programmers for Programmers.

That's about the best description of Linux I've ever heard ...

My take on the whole thing is that Microsoft gives me what I want.  I want to install Win2K, install some drivers, my apps, and I'm done.  I don't want to (and shouldn't have to) do anything more than that.  I don't want to get my hands dirty anymore.  I did it back on Unix when I first started working.  It sucks.  I have little interest in using the command-line, text file configs or obscure settings to get my system to work anymore.

That's all.  If Linux reaches the usability level of Windows, has all the latest apps available on it, and the community smartens up a little, I might try it.  But I don't see this happening anytime in the next few years, so ...

And even if that DOES happen ... what's my incentive for switching off of Win2K?  It's easy to use, runs fast and it rarely crashes.

Linux has a very long, very hard road ahead of it if it expects to overtake Windows ... it's a game of catch-up I don't think it has any chance of winning.

It's got the "down the The Man/rebel" thing going for it, but that's not going to get it onto Joe SixPack's desktop ...

---

Warren Marshall
Level Designer/Programmer/Corporate Shill
Epic Games (www.epicgames.com)
#34 by "Greg"
2000-12-09 23:34:21
greg417@worldnet.att.net
Warren, I agree with you about why switch from Win2k to Linux. Win2k is so stable that once I put it on my system I haven't really used anything else. Except that until early 2000, there was no Win2k. Windows 98 (SE in particular) sucks a lot and I could not wait for Win2k. I've tried Linux, and its been ok, but to me the biggest detriment for it is its driver support. If I can't listen/have 3d/use the internet/no usb/etc, then I won't use it. Granted, many of those issues are getting addressed, but it is over time. Linux is such a moving target that it is completely different 6 months down the road. It gets annoying trying to get the latest release of a Linux system just because they updated the drivers or kernel. And most of the major Linux releases get multiple releases per year.

Greg
#35 by "WarrenMarshall"
2000-12-10 00:35:34
warren@epicgames.com
Greg (#34):
Warren, I agree with you about why switch from Win2k to Linux. Win2k is so stable that once I put it on my system I haven't really used anything else. Except that until early 2000, there was no Win2k. Windows 98 (SE in particular) sucks a lot and I could not wait for Win2k. I've tried Linux, and its been ok, but to me the biggest detriment for it is its driver support. If I can't listen/have 3d/use the internet/no usb/etc, then I won't use it. Granted, many of those issues are getting addressed, but it is over time. Linux is such a moving target that it is completely different 6 months down the road. It gets annoying trying to get the latest release of a Linux system just because they updated the drivers or kernel. And most of the major Linux releases get multiple releases per year.

Well, this is where Linux's battle lies.  Win2K is a rock.  It takes a major screwup to make it go down.  This is going to be the basis for all future Microsoft OS's ... When the Win9X kernel goes away, the stability issues die.  Then there's no reason for the average guy to switch.

It would take something MAJOR to make someone like my Dad use Linux.  I can't even imagine what that reason would be at this point ...

---

Warren Marshall
Level Designer/Programmer/Corporate Shill
Epic Games (www.epicgames.com)
#36 by "toadwarrior"
2000-12-10 08:22:28
toadw@uplink.net
All those games are pretty good. Too bad they're quite late and the ones that aren't out won't be out before they're on Windows. :)

Linux Supposedly has more users than Mac at the moment. Yet Carmack claims Q3 on Linux sold 5% of what they sold on the Mac. Linux is catching up but at the moment I'd say it's still pretty useless for gaming.<i><b></b></i><i></i><i></i>
#37 by "Banshy"
2000-12-10 18:26:38
banshy@leaguez.com
yeah! linux for dc really rockz =)
if i only had a dreamcast keyboard, i could type more than x/y/a and b :)))
#38 by "Andrew"
2000-12-11 11:35:20
andrew@epicgames.com
Linux's main differences from Windows are implementational.  Most of the core concepts are identical, or very close.
If I was going to switch to a new OS, it would be to an OS with a more radical design.

Andrew
#39 by "Orpheus"
2000-12-11 15:13:32
RobertHeadley@email.com
.....The issue in this topic isnt whether linux is superior to windows.
THEY PORTED A OS TO THE DREAMCAST.
cant you see how bloody freaking cool that is?
If I can use it to play doom on my 200 dollar console, heh then im happy :)<i><b></b></i><i></i><i></i>
#40 by "Orpheus"
2000-12-11 15:17:15
RobertHeadley@email.com
The obvious reason this was done is so the author could *ahem* copy games I bet...

uh... no.
The Linux community has a ever present driving need to port linux to as many platforms as possible.
There was even a port for the N64, tho it was never pubicly released.
They arent doing this to Copy games. besides... even linux's magic abilities cant fit a 1gb game on a 650mb CD.
This is Bloody cool in my opinion.
<i><b></b></i><i></i><i></i>
#41 by "deadlock"
2000-12-11 15:20:05
deadlock@eircom.net
Warren:
I don't see this happening anytime in the next few years, so ...

Try 'ever happening...' I've been interested in Linux for a while now and occasionally find myself reinstalling RedHat 7, only to quickly realise why I prefer to dual-boot Win98SE and Win2k. The problem with Linux' development as an OS is that for every Linuxhead who reckons they should make things more accessible, you've a load more 'puritans' who don't want to see the OS's Unix-like roots sullied by progress.

To those that say a kernel recompile isn't really necessary, it is if you decide to upgrade your kernel. The new kernel is never compatible with your old modules, so you have to recompile your kernel to get the correct version of the modules. Why upgrade, you say ? Well, say I want to use the lovely new USB mouse I just bought; chances are, I'm gonna have to get a newer kernel than the one that came with my distro.

deadlock
#42 by "Greg"
2000-12-11 16:14:53
greg417@worldnet.att.net
Remember, running Linux on a Dreamcast won't help it run any current games. Look at the architecture. While the graphics chip is very nice, the system overall has a lack of RAM. 26 MB (and I think that is a combination of system/graphics) isn't very much. Ask Warren what Epic has to do to get UT to run on the Dreamcast. As seen from Q3, many of the maps had to be reworked to fit in RAM correctly.  Orpheus, you may get to see your DOOM on Dreamcast, just don't look for many of the current games to work well.

Greg
#43 by "Orpheus"
2000-12-11 17:27:26
RobertHeadley@email.com
Well.
Obviously, we wont see alot of NEW games on the dreamcast running in linux.
we might see More Hobby projects tho, for the dreamcast.
I mentioned doom, cause it looked like a reasonable assumption that Doom would be ported to dreamcast, since doom was one of the first linux ported games.
Im not expecting Quake III or UT any time soon, then again, I wouldnt really want it either.. heh
now.. perhaps porting Sim City Classic would be cool :)<i><b></b></i><i></i><i></i>
#44 by "szcx"
2000-12-11 18:47:11
nedocze@hotmail.com
GhostinmyShell;

The obvious reason this was done is so the author could *ahem* copy games I bet...

a quarter of the DreamCast Linux FAQ is dedicated to ripping games.

Orpheus;

Im not expecting Quake III

Quake III: Arena made it to the DreamCast just fine, without the help of Linux.
#45 by "deadlock"
2000-12-11 19:24:35
deadlock@eircom.net
without the help of Linux.

Or hindrance as the case may be...

Orpheus:
I mentioned doom, cause it looked like a reasonable assumption that Doom would be ported to dreamcast, since doom was one of the first linux ported games.

Ah, but, someone mentioned that the source code hasn't been made public (the source code for Dreamcast Linux, that is), so the chances of someone porting Doom to it are pretty slim. Unless, of course, the people that made the Dreamcast port of Linux decide to port Doom. Hardly likely since they're probably more concerned with ripping games.

even linux's magic abilities cant fit a 1gb game on a 650mb CD.


ah...no... crackers have been cutting PC games down to half their size for years. Why not Dreamcast games as well ? Rip out the FMV, speech etc...

deadlock
#46 by "Greg"
2000-12-11 20:51:45
greg417@worldnet.att.net
szcx:
Quake III: Arena made it to the DreamCast just fine, without the help of Linux.

Right, but cutting edge games (in this new fangled DC-Linux) won't work on DC due to RAM constraints. The DC Quake 3 was reworked to deal with those constraints. We were just talking about the possibilities of existing Linux games running on DC-Linux.

Greg
#47 by "datafox"
2000-12-11 22:54:17
datafox@yahoo.com
Why would you want to run linux games on a DC when you have a PC to do it?

Aside from the "coolness" factor.
#48 by "player11"
2000-12-12 17:46:37
thrawnage@bigpond.com
<b>deadlock</b> (#45):
<quote>ah...no... crackers have been cutting PC games down to half their size for years. Why not Dreamcast games as well ? Rip out the FMV, speech etc...

</quote>

Thats something that i must admit I love about those warez monkeys, lets take uhhh Alice. Now you could download the demo for 80megs or you could download the full thing only without music for 180megs (which extracts out to 650megs) now if I had cable id be warezing like a crazy (something thats crazy). Why dont dev houses start to atapt to some of the ways that warez monkeys to do things. Hell we might start seeing demos that are under 50 megs again. Is it that hard to use one of those mp3 to wav decoders in a demo?

OT: Serious Sam Test 2 hits in 4 days.. W0000P!<i><b></b></i><i></i><i></i>
#49 by "deadlock"
2000-12-12 19:50:44
deadlock@eircom.net
Yeah, but it isn't just music that's ripped, you get movies, sound etc. ripped as well. You could argue that video is superfluous, but if it's done right FMV can add to a game's appeal. Those people who claim that gameplay is all that matters kinda miss the point because the video game has shaken off its' 'humble' roots and become a powerful medium for storytelling - more powerful in fact than movies or books or any other 'traditional' method of presenting a concept.

deadlock
#50 by "Kitrack"
2000-12-12 20:05:20
JBHoldridgeII@vt.edu
On 12/12/00 at 1:50:44 PM, deadlock opened his/her mouth and said (#49):
<quote>more powerful in fact than movies or books or any other 'traditional' method of presenting a concept.</quote>
I have to disagree with you here ... It's an opinion, of course, but...
I don't think they've supplanted movies, books, poetry, etc as a method of presenting a concept.  Instead, I think that they have become another method of presenting a concept, limited by the concept itself.
I doubt that any video games will be able to adequately portray the concepts in 'Atlas Shrugged' or various philosophical books.  I'd be <i>very</i> impressed if someone managed to demonstrate DeCarte's (I hate my spelling) 'Meditations' in video game format.
The method is more dependant on the concept ...
Damn it, I've babbled haven't I?
--
It cultivates the mind, the spirit and the soul.  And we must always cultivate the soul.<i><b></b></i><i></i><i></i>
C O M M E N T S
Home » Topic: Over-rated OS for Dreamcast

|«« - Previous Page - Next Page - »»|
P O S T   A   C O M M E N T

You need to be logged in to post a comment here. If you don't have an account yet, you can create one here. Registration is free.
C R A P T A G S
Simple formatting: [b]bold[/b], [i]italic[/i], [u]underline[/u]
Web Links: [url=www.mans.de]Cool Site[/url], [url]www.mans.de[/url]
Email Links: [email=some@email.com]Email me[/email], [email]some@email.com[/email]
Simple formatting: Quoted text: [quote]Yadda yadda[/quote]
Front Page (ATOM) • Submission Bin (2) • ArchivesUsersLoginCreate Account
You are currently not logged in.
There are currently 0 people browsing this site. [Details]