PlanetCrap 6.0!
Front Page (ATOM) • Submission Bin (2) • ArchivesUsersLoginCreate Account
You are currently not logged in.
T O P I C
Your Mission Pack - Should You Choose to Accept It?
December 2nd 2000, 18:47 CET by TomC

The last week has seen the release of a demo for id's long-awaited expansion for Quake 3: Arena, Team Arena. This last week has also seen me install Baldur's Gate and Tales of the Sword Coast (its attendant expansion pack). "What has this to do with the price of mead, sirrah?" I hear you cry. Well, it set me to thinking about mission packs, expansion packs, add-on packs and any other subtly-differently-defined-word packs the publishers may choose to accept as a term for the extra bits one can buy for most successful games.

Many moons ago, mission packs were exactly that - floppy disks with a few extra missions for the game in question. You'll forgive me if my memory deceives me (I was, after all, only 10 at the time), but I seem to recall that most of these mission disks were for flight sims and role-playing games - in other words, niche markets, where the players would enjoy the opportunity to expand the game. They might contain new landscapes, new planes, new weapons, characters or quests, but they would be a part of the original game - much as Tales of the Sword Coast is to BG. Yet these days, it seems that the average mission pack is practically a new game which simply requires that one owns the original game in order to be able to function. Both of Quake's mission packs, for example, were run separately from the main game, and separately from each other. Battlezone was another - in that case, the mission pack was an entirely discrete executable.

Of course, there's nothing inherently wrong with this - except that certain developers seem to have decided that, since these expansions are effectively full games, the public should be charged the full price for them. According to the best of public knowledge, Team Arena is to cost approximately 30 in the shops - and (shock, horror) that's exactly the price I paid for my copy of Q3A. What a contrast with the days of 5 mission disks for F-19 Stealth Fighter or Dungeon Master. In effect, we're being asked to pay for a full game - on the one proviso that we've already paid for another full game. Perhaps Team Arena ought to be a stand-alone product? From what I've heard, it could stand well as a game on its own feet.

But wait! A further thought, to goad your flabby cerebella into ill-accustomed action! The reason these mission packs are, to all intents and purposes, separate games, is in the main the structure of the originals' engines. In the case of Quake-engine games, they are actually very little more than standard mods to the game - perhaps, then, we might see a future in shop shelves stacked with boxed copies of The Quake Engine? No game, just an environment for no end of other games? Do we see a future in that? Or perhaps in episodic games? Who knows? You all know - so speak now or forever hold thy pieces (you'll go blind though).
C O M M E N T S
Home » Topic: Your Mission Pack - Should You Choose to Accept It?

|«« - Previous Page - Next Page - »»|
#1 by "Lucky"
2000-12-02 19:03:45
lucky@planetduke.com
Firsties!!

Uh mission packs mainly blow; all have since Armagon for Quake 1. Op For was semi-l33t tho . . .
#2 by "szcx"
2000-12-02 19:04:16
nedocze@hotmail.com
i payed $50 (on release) for Quake III: Arena at EB.  they have Team Arena listed for $30.  $50 != $30.

if you don't like the price, wait a few weeks for it to drop, it's a no-brainer.
#3 by "SidShuman"
2000-12-02 20:17:08
SidShuman@aol.com
Mission Paks DO blow. And for one main reason.

They require the original copy of the game.

This is publishing silliness at its worst. Let me get this straight: in order to play Opposing Force -- a rather expensive, short little game -- I need the original Half-Life? Sure, vanilla HL is like $10 now, but that's not the point. I should be able to play OpFor when I buy OpFor -- there should be no other requirements.

Mission Paks should be stand-alone. I've never understood why publishers don't do this. Hell, make two versions on the CD: one an upgrade, the other stand-alone. Do publishers honestly believe that Mission Paks somehow spur sales of the original title?

By selling for <$20, stand-alone Mission Paks could pull double-duty. They'd please fans of the original title, and ensnare other gamers (who don't want to pay $40 for a full game, but want to check it out anyway). And if you make the Pak worthwhile, you'll get plenty of converts who will go and buy the original. Think of the earnings! As it is, Missions Paks generally don't sell well.

Anyone want to explain/justify the current Pak philosophy to this country bumpkin?

Sid
#4 by "None1a"
2000-12-02 23:59:21
none1a@home.com
Anyone want to explain/justify the current Pak philosophy to this country bumpkin?


To extend the gameplay of the original title. There is no reason to make them all stand alown, if your going to do that OpFor might as well be a completly new game not an stand-alone mission pak.

The problem is they expect us to pay the same friging price at the full game cost when it first came out. If they'd have charged 10-20 bucks I would have bought OpFor but they didn't. the day I walked in best buy with some cash to blow it was a desision between it or a full new game, for the same price (I went with the new games, but can not for the life of me remember what the hell it was I bought on that trip).
#5 by "szcx"
2000-12-03 00:10:21
nedocze@hotmail.com
The problem is they expect us to pay the same friging price at the full game cost when it first came out. If they'd have charged 10-20 bucks I would have bought OpFor but they didn't.


ebworld has opposing force listed at $20.
#6 by "AmbushBug"
2000-12-03 00:33:57
ambushbug@portalofevil.com
szcx wrote:
ebworld has opposing force listed at $20.


I believe I payed around $40 for it when it came out, give any game enough time and you can pick it up for $20.

To be honest though I'm much more irked about seeing "Gold Editions" come out 2 months after I've purchased a game and dont offer any way to upgrade to the new version other than some token $5 discount.
#7 by "szcx"
2000-12-03 01:02:28
nedocze@hotmail.com
give any game enough time and you can pick it up for $20.


exactly.
#8 by "Glock"
2000-12-03 01:19:22
glock17@tampabay.rr.com
To be honest though I'm much more irked about seeing "Gold Editions" come out 2 months after I've purchased a game and dont offer any way to upgrade to the new version other than some token $5 discount.


That is basically what Rebellion and FOX Interactive did with Aliens vs. Predator Gold Edition.  It didn't give much except for two new weapons, 9 new multiplayer levels, and allowances for custom multiplayer levels. To current owners, they offered an online only upgrade of 10 dollars, which was called the Millennium Expansion Pack.

The problem was was it was not worth getting.  The shipping charges nearly doubled the price, and it wasn't until EB World was allowed to sell it online that it was only 2 bucks for shipping.  Another problem though, what if the buyers of the original AvP doesn't have a credit card?  It's difficult to see that, but some simply couldn't get it.  Tough luck for them.  Of course they came to the AvP fan forums and accused FOX of a ripoff.  

What Raven Software did was completely different from FOX Interactive.  Even though SOF sold less than AvP or AvP Gold did, they made available a SOF Gold patch for the original owners, for free.  Even though SOF's community is small, the Gold Edition patch gave it a boost.  

But of course, FOX Interactive's marketing department is filled with ignorant incompetent morons.  They not only fucked over AvP's fans for charging for the Millennium Expansion pack, but they dropped the ball on Sanity, which sold less than 1000 copies in 3 months,  and perhaps NOLF as well (haven't gotten any solid figures on NOLF yet.).
#9 by "WarrenMarshall"
2000-12-03 01:45:39
warren@epicgames.com
The purpose of mission packs is to give fans of the original game something more to play in that same universe.  Who buys a mission pack for a game they didn't like?  So the odds are utterly fantastic that if you're buying the mission pack, you own the original game.  Simple math.

And there haven't been any good mission packs since Armagon?  Oh come on ... The Quake3 mission pack from Xatrix was very cool I thought, and I LOVED OpFor ... still do.
#10 by "WarrenMarshall"
2000-12-03 01:46:21
warren@epicgames.com
Quake2 mission pack from Xatrix.  Whatever...   :)
#11 by "BloodKnight"
2000-12-03 01:51:56
bloodknight@somethingawful.com
Mission packs as mentioned a dozen times before, is to expand the game's life.  Some expansions are good, some are shiiiiiiit.

Unreal add-on was good, because they kept to the name.  All it did was add some weapons, maps, etc.  Nothing like a totally new game.

Team arena is just some bullshit scam from ID.  Lets see, rip off mods of UT and other things that SHOULD have been in the orginal quake 3 arena package.  And they want us to pay for their lazy ways?  Not to mention its a rip.  

If TA was for free...fine that would be cool.  But paying for a patch?  Nah
#12 by "BloodKnight"
2000-12-03 01:52:22
bloodknight@somethingawful.com
I meant modes, not mods
#13 by "SteveBauman"
2000-12-03 03:20:24
steve@manic-pop-thrills.com
Just thought I'd point out that, according to PC Data, the first add-on for RollerCoaster Tycoon (Corkscrew Follies) has sold an astonishing 500,000 copies in the US alone. (The original RollerCoaster Tycoon is at 1.5 million and counting.) Loopy Landscapes is at about 100,000 after a month or so of release. Overall, the games have pulled in about $60 million in revenue. (Many developers tell me PC Data numbers are anywhere from 60-80% of the "real" sales figures.) Whee! That's a lot of games.

"All" that each add-on has are more rides and about 10-20 new scenarios, and yet no one complains or claims they were "ripped off" because this stuff wasn't included in the original game. Maybe it's because the original game was $29.95 and the add-ons are about $20-$24.

Guess what? As long as people buy the add-ons, people will make them. They make sense financially; make a game, release it, create an add-on 8-12 months later both to renew interest the original game and make some extra cash, then do an all-new game two years after the original.
#14 by "None1a"
2000-12-03 03:53:05
none1a@home.com
ebworld has opposing force listed at $20.


And that of course didn't help grab a sale when I last went shoping (which was when it was new). Put it this way your standing in a store looking a a brand new expantion versus a brand new game, both cost the same but the new game offers some thing totaly different. Which one do you buy?
#15 by "Speed"
2000-12-03 04:13:29
speed@pandora.be
I find it ridiculous that Quake 2 is still selling at full price in Europe (no budget versions yet)
No-one seems to find that weird though, people rather complain about an add-on being full-price than about a game that's more than 2 years old still not being available at a lower price...

Speed
Fragland.net
#16 by "szcx"
2000-12-03 04:35:29
nedocze@hotmail.com
Put it this way your standing in a store looking a a brand new expantion versus a brand new game, both cost the same but the new game offers some thing totaly different. Which one do you buy?


depends on the game.  i'd certainly take something like q3:ta over daikatana.  of course, i've never seen an expansion that was exactly the same price as the original game, they've always been substantially cheaper.  maybe i'm just lucky.
#17 by "BloodKnight"
2000-12-03 05:00:04
bloodknight@somethingawful.com
Guess what? As long as people buy the add-ons, people will make them. They make sense financially; make a game, release it, create an add-on 8-12 months later both to renew interest the original game and make some extra cash, then do an all-new game two years after the original.

No one complained because people liked how roller coaster was (well maybe do-it-yourself scenario would be nice)
But if the game is good, loaded with features, and wasn't something that would last 5 minutes, people will buy addons to keep that orginal fun going.  However, ID decided to make some half-ass game using their great looking but shit lighting engine.  CTF with 4 maps?
#18 by "hellrazer_6"
2000-12-03 05:00:55
hellrazer_6@hotmail.com
Team Arena is the slickest idea ever, charge an extra $30-$50 for the shit that should have been in the original game.
#19 by "Rambar"
2000-12-03 05:11:32
rambar@homegettingablowjob.com
Team Arena is the slickest idea ever, charge an extra $30-$50 for the shit that should have been in the original game.
Sssh!  Pretty soon the games division at Microsoft will come up with the brilliant idea that they can charge for patches.  It works for operating systems why not for games?

The cool thing about missions packs is that they are generally easier to pirate.  I'm sure a cd-image of the Diablo2 expansion is all I need to play.  No serial number woes.   I'm betting that the appropriate exectuable and pak files will allow you to play Team Arena for free as well.
#20 by "SteveBauman"
2000-12-03 05:13:17
steve@manic-pop-thrills.com
But if the game is good, loaded with features, and wasn't something that would last 5 minutes, people will buy addons to keep that orginal fun going. However, ID decided to make some half-ass game using their great looking but shit lighting engine. CTF with 4 maps?

I know this is hard to believe, but there are probably people that liked Quake III and didn't think it was a half-assed game (and 98% of the world doesn't give a shit about lighting).

You could say "the stuff in the add-on should have been in the original game" about EVERY add-on ever released. If you didn't like Quake III, don't buy the add-on. If you did, consider if what's there is worth the money. Sheesh, why is this even an issue worth discussing?
#21 by "SteveBauman"
2000-12-03 05:18:15
steve@manic-pop-thrills.com
The cool thing about missions packs is that they are generally easier to pirate. I'm sure a cd-image of the Diablo2 expansion is all I need to play. No serial number woes. I'm betting that the appropriate exectuable and pak files will allow you to play Team Arena for free as well.

Ah yes, if you don't like what they're doing steal it anonymously from the safety of your Internet connection. That'll show 'em. Why would you want to steal something so useless? Hmm...

Here's a thought. If you want to protest how much of a rip-off this is, write id a letter or e-mail explaining why they don't deserve your money and don't buy it. If no one buys the thing, they'll get a clue.
#22 by "Speed"
2000-12-03 05:19:33
speed@pandora.be
Something that is really making me wonder is the following :
Developers are making FPS more and more with bigger and better effects, but on the other hand, hardcore FPS gamers turn of as much details as possible to get their framerates up. That's also something ID completely did wrong with Q3A in my opinion. Personally i DON'T want to see all the fancy explosions when I'm playing a war since they only block my sight, but although it was possible to turn them off in Q2, Q3A doesn't have this option anymore. I'm all for the fact that developers should try as much as possible to prevent cheats from being made, but they shouldn't be limitating players in the way one wants to play.
If someone wants to play with all details on, no problem, but if that same player wants to have no explosions what so ever and have the shaft's ray being less blocking the sight, that player should have that possibility aswell.

Speed
Fragland.net
#23 by "BloodKnight"
2000-12-03 06:28:55
bloodknight@somethingawful.com
If you did, consider if what's there is worth the money. Sheesh, why is this even an issue worth discussing?

Because ID is charging the same price for an ADD-ON as the retail price.  Q3A had nothing in the box so instead of making it into a patch, they want to charge people 40 bucks for a patch on a CD.

Oh yeah, I can imagine the sells...back to Q3F or WFA, only reason why I play Q3A
and Classic CTF
#24 by "BloodKnight"
2000-12-03 06:29:41
bloodknight@somethingawful.com
fuck it was supposed to be sales
ah hell, 12 AM here.  SLEEEEEP
#25 by "WarrenMarshall"
2000-12-03 06:55:24
warren@epicgames.com
Steve :
You could say "the stuff in the add-on should have been in the original game" about EVERY add-on ever released. If you didn't like Quake III, don't buy the add-on. If you did, consider if what's there is worth the money. Sheesh, why is this even an issue worth discussing?

Because it's the internet.  People NEED to bitch.  If they don't, they'll explode.  I swear, the wave of negativity that sweeps across the net these days is enough to make you wanna cry.

Speed :
Developers are making FPS more and more with bigger and better effects, but on the other hand, hardcore FPS gamers turn of as much details as possible to get their framerates up.

Well, this is something that "harcore" gamers haven't yet grasped ... they aren't a game developers target market.  Not if that game developer wants to stay in business.
#26 by "SteveBauman"
2000-12-03 07:54:03
steve@manic-pop-thrills.com
Because ID is charging the same price for an ADD-ON as the retail price.

And the problem is? Sorry, I still don't get it. Beyond it being perhaps a stupid idea, they can charge what they want, and oddly enough people can choose whether or not to buy it. You're acting like it's somehow a requirement, that you MUST OWN THIS GAME. If it was actually required, you might have reason to bitch and moan.

Q3A had nothing in the box so instead of making it into a patch, they want to charge people 40 bucks for a patch on a CD.

Really? It had nothing? I seem to vaguely recall a game that is at least good enough that people seem to care about this add-on. And last I checked, a patch addressed bug problems. Now there are companies that are making their bug patches more palatable by adding more features (kind of like a minty medicine), but people really shouldn't act like that's somehow a requirement. Man, the sense of entitlement gamer's have... it's really quite amazing. We're all very spoiled, and act the part.

Also, if it had nothing in the box, are people still playing nothing? We were actually having this discussion at work the other day. I didn't think Quake III was much of a game yet it's still on my hard drive, and I still fire it up from time-to-time. Why would I still have a mediocre game on my hard drive, a year after it came out? Why does it stay around? Is it truly mediocre if I play it more than Unreal Tournament, which most everyone agrees is a better game?
#27 by "SteveBauman"
2000-12-03 07:56:18
steve@manic-pop-thrills.com
Because it's the internet. People NEED to bitch. If they don't, they'll explode. I swear, the wave of negativity that sweeps across the net these days is enough to make you wanna cry.

It's certainly a lot easier to be negative about everything than to actually, I dunno, like something and say so in public. If you do that people lay into you as if you've just insulted their mother. You should see some of my mail... oy vey.
#28 by "Rambar"
2000-12-03 08:44:10
rambar@homegettingablowjob.com
Ah yes, if you don't like what they're doing steal it anonymously from the safety of your Internet connection. That'll show 'em. Why would you want to steal something so useless? Hmm...

Here's a thought. If you want to protest how much of a rip-off this is, write id a letter or e-mail explaining why they don't deserve your money and don't buy it. If no one buys the thing, they'll get a clue.


Heh, you know just because I talk about pirating games doesn't mean I have a problem with the price.   I have no problem with the whatever the price of Q3:TA ends up being.   I'm not under some delusion that stealing things reduces their price.  I have a vauge grasp of Supply and Demand.
#29 by "Terata"
2000-12-03 09:19:12
jstatz@ravensoft.com
There's at least one case where mission packs have a significant reason for not being stand-alone: If a game is using licensed technology, depending on the license, it might be substially more expensive to include the executable, rather than just content.
#30 by "JamSandwich"
2000-12-03 11:27:34
jmason@rhino.nildram.co.uk
I think the point is that Q3A was hailed as the ultimate in FPS games, it wasn't, and this patch (erm, addon :)) makes it more like what people originally wanted.

So those who are pissed off at having spent full $$$ on it first time round will have to spend full $$$ second time round for something they thought they were getting first time; please tell me that made sense, I've just woken up after 16 hours of sleep.

Personally I don't give a damn, I was one of those bitterly disappointed with Q3, so guess what? I stopped playing it after I got thoroughly bored and so this addon/patch/whatever doesn't concern me in the slightest :D
#31 by "GeorgeBroussard"
2000-12-03 11:29:54
georgeb@3drealms.com
Steve,

Man, the sense of entitlement gamer's have... it's really quite amazing. We're all very spoiled, and act the part.


It wasn't until I was on the receiving end of the issue (being a developer) that I began to truly understood phrases I'd heard all my life:

* "Armchair/Monday Morning Quarterback"
* "Backseat Driver"
* "Everybody's a critic"
* "Opinions are like assholes - everybody's got one"

Good LORD does that ever apply to gaming fans out there.  

Well, and me too.  Ok, especially me.  And Wiederhold.  And Warren.  And...oh screw it....bring on the next flamebait.  There's more people for me to pipss off out there.
#32 by "ReV"
2000-12-03 12:39:38
md@looroll.com
personally I've given up buying games as soon as they come out now, best to wait a year and buy a double pack from EB for a massive discount and with no bugs left in the game... =)
#33 by "Milamber"
2000-12-03 13:54:33
milamber@amoeba.com.au
In terms of mission packs, I really disagree with Ids stance on this one, mainly because it is a multiplayer game. The lifeblood of any multiplayer game is its community, and a lot of people feel like they've been shafted by Id and their support of Q3. When a company like Epic continually releases packs for free on the net containing official maps for all the gameplay types included in the game, it doesn't sit well that when Id does the same thing they charge you $30 (or about $60 AU) for the privelege. Admittedly there's a lot more inlcuded in TA that in other releases of the sort, but surely the majority of maps and runes etc could have been released for free or a small sum. Hell, I wouldn't regret paying $20 for the UI enhancements and terrain features but I resent having to pay $60.

As far as mission packs go, I think the stand out one would have to be 2015's Wages of Sin addon. While Armagon added a really nice single player campaign and some new weapons, WOS had a massive single-player experience that was almost as big as the original game plus an equal number of new weapons as were included in the original. Then you had a series of brilliant DM maps and a whole new DM style involving Hover-Bikes that could be used for racing or fighting. Hell, even the hoverbikes had their own set of weapons. There was hours of gameplay in there and it retailed at $30 AU. The addon for Jedi-Knight wasn't half bad either.
#34 by "RyslinANDIndigo"
2000-12-03 14:21:34
ryslinmoon@yahoo.com
hmmm '

addon packs..
well
i bought rollercoaster tycoon..and corkscrew follies...i got the warezd version of loopy ..to make sure i wanted it!..of course i did...but me pocket is empty<sigh>
now..this is the thing about warez that kills ya'll
a majority of the warez is not the large groups...but people going to gamecopyworld.com..or elsewhere<information readally avalible> and geting the required bypass to the security and giving said game they bought ..and thought was cool ..to all thier friends.

i dont even know how many games came to me that way..said friend comes over...hey you HAVE to play this..wips out cd..zip disk<going back a few yrs> portable harddrive!<remeber those folks..ya have a little bay that you can easily slip your harddrive in and out of!

and even back in the day...floppy it!!
sheesh it was horrible on bbs!
face it... if people think they can get it for free..and if someone offers for free..who in thier right mind will say no..

end rant..
begin mission thinggy
loopy landscapes is worth it..it is a final version<almost> of the exe..and it is much more stable <as i have seen> than the original or even later patches..
living large<the sims add on> was a night mare

that one almost deserved to be warezed to death....as many people who bought the game and couldnt install i mean sheesh..
then the game itself wasnt even half what we where told..but ..the saving grace was the permenant expantion of the exe to handle alot ...i mean alot..more user files

i refuse to even think about buying quake 3 till they remain on a exe for at least 6mths..or more!
i will be forced..<due to my love of the game> to buy the diablo 2 addon!
thinking back to diablo and hellfire...they too were worth it!
i think..
that if the addon significantly changes the gameplay..
again
significantly changes the gameplay!!!!!!
its worth at least 30bucks...
but NOT 50
end of tiraid...
you may continue screaming at each other..
#35 by "deadlock"
2000-12-03 14:48:39
deadlock@eircom.net
Rambar:
Pretty soon the games division at Microsoft will come up with the brilliant idea that they can charge for patches. It works for operating systems why not for games?


Huh ? I've never paid for a patch for any operating system, at least not directly. I mean, if you use Windows Update over the internet, you're paying for the phone call, but that money goes to the phone company. Likewise if you download the service packs for WinNT/2000, though I usually do that at work (we got DIA). 'Course, you can order the patch/sp on disk, but I've never done this, so I don't know how much it costs. And you do have the choice.

I'm not under some delusion that stealing things reduces their price



On the contrary, publishers use piracy as an excuse to push up game prices. I often wonder whether or not prices would come down if pirates wised up and stopped stealing. I also find it hard to believe that piracy is that rampant among anyone who doesn't have a reliable, fast internet connection or good contacts; ie, the average joe.

On the subject of piracy, there's nothing that annoys me more than fuckers downloading entire albums in mp3 format, when a hard CD copy isn't exactly out of their price range. I mean, I'll grant that CDs are a smidgen over-priced, but come on, I mean a bloke earning 22,000 a year isn't gonna find himself on the street because he bought the new U2 album, is he ?

JamSandwich:
I think the point is that Q3A was hailed as the ultimate in FPS games, it wasn't, and this patch (erm, addon :)) makes it more like what people originally wanted.


I'm no id fanboy and I didn't follow Quake 3's development with anything more than vague interest, but I don't remember anyone (apart from feverish fanboys) hailing it as the ultimate in FPS games. A few might have held it up (rightly or wrongly) as a milestone in multiplaying. And I can think of only one thing off the top of my head that id said would be in and that was pulled for the final release: classes. Again, I didn't pay a great deal of attention to the development, so there may be more.

deadlock
#36 by "JustinAlias"
2000-12-03 15:53:40
venndah@yahoo.com
On the subject of piracy, there's nothing that annoys me more than fuckers downloading entire albums in mp3 format, when a hard CD copy isn't exactly out of their price range. I mean, I'll grant that CDs are a smidgen over-priced, but come on, I mean a bloke earning 22,000 a year isn't gonna find himself on the street because he bought the new U2 album, is he ?

I download MP3's regularly, but if I like the CD enough, I do buy it. The sound quality of MP3's (to me, anyways) doesn't even come near CD's. But I don't pay full retail price on it, though. I often find what I need either at the pawn shop down the street ($3/each) or at various yard/garage sales around the area. I'd say 90% of my collection came from one of the two.

On topic: I say let them do as they wish with Mission packs. No one is putting a gun to your head and forcing you to buy it.
I kinda like Team Arena, but when it comes right down to it, there are often better mods (for free) out there. Given enough time, you might see a few of the features (if any) that make TA appealing in other downloadable mods.
#37 by "superion"
2000-12-03 16:53:38
superion@spacemoose.com
mp3 piracy bad? what about DVDs?

i just love it when a some fool rips a $14 dvd into a poorly encoded divx and posts it to usenet 100 times. What a way to give the movie industry a reason to raise prices. Not to say I haven't DL'd a divx or vcd before, but ripping DVDs is just sad. Stealing just to steal, the ends do not justify the effort.
#38 by "JustinAlias"
2000-12-03 17:34:34
venndah@yahoo.com
Aye. Back when DVD's ran $30-40 I could see why, but now with $15-20 DVD's (and even a few $10 ones) it's just plain perplexing to me. You get to see the movie, sure, but you don't get the extra added features most DVD's have these days.
#39 by "JamSandwich"
2000-12-03 18:12:58
jmason@rhino.nildram.co.uk
I'm no id fanboy and I didn't follow Quake 3's development with anything more than vague interest, but I don't remember anyone (apart from feverish fanboys) hailing it as the ultimate in FPS games. A few might have held it up (rightly or wrongly) as a milestone in multiplaying.


id themselves did it, by going all-out to make "the ultimate in deathmatch games". I'm no id fanboy either, but I was a great lover of online FPS gaming, along with many other people, so the interest went a bit further than "vague". You can't really say that it was low-key ;)
#40 by "JamSandwich"
2000-12-03 18:15:08
jmason@rhino.nildram.co.uk
Superion: The whole Region1/Region2 thing shows exactly how moneygrabbing the DVD scene is. Plus a lot of people don't have a DVD player. Plus some countries pay a hell of a lot more for DVDs than the U.S.A. :)

(yeah, I have a fairly extensive DivX collection. You wont believe me when I say I'll buy 90% on DVD when I finally get a player and can afford them, but I will...)
#41 by "szcx"
2000-12-03 19:27:05
nedocze@hotmail.com
Because ID is charging the same price for an ADD-ON as the retail price


no, they're not.

how about looking into things yourself before taking conspiracy-laden PlanetCrap topics as gospel?
#42 by "SteveBauman"
2000-12-03 20:20:05
steve@manic-pop-thrills.com
So those who are pissed off at having spent full $$$ on it first time round will have to spend full $$$ second time round for something they thought they were getting first time; please tell me that made sense, I've just woken up after 16 hours of sleep.

No one "will have" to spend anything for the add-on. There are no laws requiring gamers to purchase it. And again, there are probably plenty of people perfectly content with Quake III as it stands, and who are still playing it a year after its release.

But the real gist I'm getting here is that people are pissed off they bought a game they didn't like. You'd think this never happened before. Here's what supposed to happen: When you don't like it, you stop playing it. You burn it in effigy. You give it to your friends/neighbors/relatives. You trade it in at EB. You tell everyone within earshot how much you dislike it. Then you move on with your life.

You don't warez the add-on, or complain about its pricing. Why would you care? You didn't like the game in the first place. An add-on is for people that LIKED the original game, not people who felt it was lacking.

Oh, and as for pricing, as szcx wrote, it's not the same as the full game. $40 for the original (MSRP probably $44.99-$49.99), less than $30 for the add-on (MSRP of $29.99). Retailers wouldn't want to take a product that cost $5-$10 as there's no profit margin to make any money (which might upset the publisher and developer as well). The fact that people were selling the original game at around $30 (or pounds) when it shipped probably had to do with sales loss-leaders and such. Team Arena may end up $24 or less when it ships; it depends on whether or not anyone is dealing (unlikely, as there's less demand for an add-on than a full game). It will end up considerably cheaper in a couple of months, but I realize gamers are a rather impatient bunch...
#43 by "SteveBauman"
2000-12-03 20:32:37
steve@manic-pop-thrills.com
Superion: The whole Region1/Region2 thing shows exactly how moneygrabbing the DVD scene is. Plus a lot of people don't have a DVD player. Plus some countries pay a hell of a lot more for DVDs than the U.S.A. :)

In the "new Internet world", anything that can be stolen should, especially if someone is having the audacity to make money from it. Besides, it's their fault for making you want them. No DVD player? Too expensive? Protesting region encoding? In the "good old days(tm)" we somehow figured out how live our lives without these things. Today, you can get around it. PIRATE! STEAL!

Just think how we can translate that thinking into more tangible things. I think groceries are too expensive. Shoplift! No one should charge money for land. Become a squatter! Cars are too expensive. Steal one! Steal cable! Steal long-distance! Steal credit cards! Rob banks! Oh wait, these things would actually be risky.

Look people, if you REALLY think these things are "very bad things(tm)" and want to do something in protest, don't do it anonymously. If you feel strongly enough, have the balls to stand up to the companies you feel have unjust policies; civili disobediance doesn't work when people are hiding behind anonymity. Instead, it justifies companies driving up prices for everyone else who DOESN'T have a problem with horrible, horrible $17 regionally encoded DVDs, forces Draconian copy protection measures and generally makes things more complicated for the majority of people.
#44 by "JamSandwich"
2000-12-03 20:40:38
jmason@rhino.nildram.co.uk
Quibbling over price will get you nowhere with us types from the UK, we'll be paying through the nose, trust me :)

As for "having to buy the game" - my point was that Team Arena seems to be what gamers wanted from Q3:A originally. THAT is why people are complaining, and that's why a lot of these people will actually shell out cash - *because* they were so disappointed in the vanilla version.

But the real gist I'm getting here is that people are pissed off they bought a game they didn't like. You'd think this never happened before. Here's what supposed to happen: When you don't like it, you stop playing it. You burn it in effigy. You give it to your friends/neighbors/relatives. You trade it in at EB. You tell everyone within earshot how much you dislike it. Then you move on with your life.

You don't warez the add-on, or complain about its pricing. Why would you care? You didn't like the game in the first place. An add-on is for people that LIKED the original game, not people who felt it was lacking.


Er, what did I say?
Here, I'll remind you:
Personally I don't give a damn, I was one of those bitterly disappointed with Q3, so guess what? I stopped playing it after I got thoroughly bored and so this addon/patch/whatever doesn't concern me in the slightest :D


As for gamers being an impatient bunch, sure. FPS gamers especially; they don't want anyone getting a few months headstart on em, so that they get bitchslapped whenever they join a server...
#45 by "JamSandwich"
2000-12-03 20:46:59
jmason@rhino.nildram.co.uk
You're telling me that DVD ripping drives up prices? You're kidding me, right? These companies have proved that they'll charge whatever they like anyway.

As for making a protest... nah. I was making a point as to why some people feel the need to indulge in a little DivX action. Personally, I do it coz I'm getting something for nothing - sure, it's probably stealing, but it really aint hurting the major film makers financially. I'm doing something illegal that benefits me, doesn't cause the film industry any discomfort, won't cost the people behind the film anything they'd ever notice in a million years, and because I can get away with it with the utmost ease. So shoot me, I'm taking advantage of the situation.

Plus, I get the benefit of something to blame when I snap and go on my murderous gun rampage after another day of train delays and overcrowding on the London Underground - violent films to go with the violent videogames... ;)
#46 by "SteveBauman"
2000-12-03 21:33:03
steve@manic-pop-thrills.com
You're telling me that DVD ripping drives up prices? You're kidding me, right? These companies have proved that they'll charge whatever they like anyway.

Supply, meet demand. Demand, meet supply. No one needs DVDs, so they can't charge "whatever they like." They'd like to charge $1 million dollars, or $500, or $50, but they can't. They charge what the market will bear. They started high-priced, and are steadily creeping downward. They'll reach a point (they're probably already there) where people are comfortable buying them and the companies can still make an ungodly amount of money.

Personally, I do it coz I'm getting something for nothing - sure, it's probably stealing, but it really aint hurting the major film makers financially.

Cool selective morality. So long as it doesn't affect anyone (that you're aware of), it's okay. Rumor has it theft is theft, though intellectual property is less tangible than, say, a car.
#47 by "SteveBauman"
2000-12-03 21:35:19
steve@manic-pop-thrills.com
As for "having to buy the game" - my point was that Team Arena seems to be what gamers wanted from Q3:A originally. THAT is why people are complaining, and that's why a lot of these people will actually shell out cash - *because* they were so disappointed in the vanilla version.

That doesn't make any sense. If they were SO disappointed with the original, why didn't they shelve the game? Why would they be at all interested in the expansion? And more importantly, why would they support companies doing this kind of thing in the future by turning over dollars for the expansion?

I have a sneaking suspicion those people bitching about Quake III have been playing it for the last year while bitching, which begs the question, "If it's so bad, why are you playing it?" And furthermore, why would you want more horrible, terrible Quake III stuff in an expansion?
#48 by "JamSandwich"
2000-12-03 22:13:39
jmason@rhino.nildram.co.uk
Supply, meet demand. Demand, meet supply. No one needs DVDs, so they can't charge "whatever they like." They'd like to charge $1 million dollars, or $500, or $50, but they can't. They charge what the market will bear. They started high-priced, and are steadily creeping downward. They'll reach a point (they're probably already there) where people are comfortable buying them and the companies can still make an ungodly amount of money.


And DivXs just dont make a dent in that at all. You can't compare it with something like, say, mp3s, simply because divxs are so large.

Cool selective morality. So long as it doesn't affect anyone (that you're aware of), it's okay. Rumor has it theft is theft, though intellectual property is less tangible than, say, a car.


Absolutely. I don't play by the rules all the time, and I don't know of anyone that does. If I were a filmmaker, I'd be more interested in a) The huge amount of sales these films produce, and b) hype/fame/word-of-mouth advertising than the tiny c) a very small number of people with cheap copies.

That doesn't make any sense. If they were SO disappointed with the original, why didn't they shelve the game? Why would they be at all interested in the expansion? And more importantly, why would they support companies doing this kind of thing in the future by turning over dollars for the expansion?

I have a sneaking suspicion those people bitching about Quake III have been playing it for the last year while bitching, which begs the question, "If it's so bad, why are you playing it?" And furthermore, why would you want more horrible, terrible Quake III stuff in an expansion?


You obviously don't understand the FPS community in the slightest. People are addicted to these things - when they see their favourite game being adversely affected by the new one, they feel they have to move on; sometimes they're just bored of 3 years of QW and want something new. In the straight DM / 4v4 / CTF arena, there's 2 choices these days: UT and Q3:A. UT loses a lot of credit for the fps problems with non-3dfx cards, plus a lot of people don't like graphical style / weapons / maps / *whatever*. That leaves people trying to play Quake3 despite not enjoying it half as much as they'd like. You're not grasping this point - it's *incredibly* hard to stop playing online FPS games competitively. And so, when id release an addon that promises all the things that people wanted to begin with, you're gonna get people who don't like the original buying it.

It's not that hard to understand.
#49 by "WarrenMarshall"
2000-12-03 22:44:31
warren@epicgames.com
GeorgeBroussard (#31):
* "Armchair/Monday Morning Quarterback"
* "Backseat Driver"
* "Everybody's a critic"
* "Opinions are like assholes - everybody's got one"

Good LORD does that ever apply to gaming fans out there.


Yeah, I know what you mean ... everyone always knows better than the guys who made the game.  :)

RyslinANDIndigo (#34):
a majority of the warez is not the large groups...but people going to gamecopyworld.com..or elsewhere<information readally avalible> and geting the required bypass to the security and giving said game they bought ..and thought was cool ..to all thier friends.

This is what I keep saying, but nobody believes me.  :)  Casual piracy is the killer...

deadlock (#35):
Huh ? I've never paid for a patch for any operating system, at least not directly. I mean, if you use Windows Update over the internet, you're paying for the phone call, but that money goes to the phone company. Likewise if you download the service packs for WinNT/2000, though I usually do that at work (we got DIA). 'Course, you can order the patch/sp on disk, but I've never done this, so I don't know how much it costs. And you do have the choice.

I think that was an attempt to be witty and imply that Win98 was a patch for Win95, etc ...

JamSandwich (#45):
You're telling me that DVD ripping drives up prices? You're kidding me, right?

Why is this kind of thing hard for people to grasp?  If you steal something, the price on it will go up.  Software, DVD's, etc ... it's simple logic.

As for making a protest... nah. I was making a point as to why some people feel the need to indulge in a little DivX action. Personally, I do it coz I'm getting something for nothing - sure, it's probably stealing, but it really aint hurting the major film makers financially. I'm doing something illegal that benefits me, doesn't cause the film industry any discomfort, won't cost the people behind the film anything they'd ever notice in a million years, and because I can get away with it with the utmost ease. So shoot me, I'm taking advantage of the situation.

And there's your justification to yourself ... happy stealing!

SteveBauman (#46):
So long as it doesn't affect anyone (that you're aware of), it's okay.

No, it's "as long as it doesn't affect you or anyone you know".

JamSandwich (#48):
You're not grasping this point - it's *incredibly* hard to stop playing online FPS games competitively. And so, when id release an addon that promises all the things that people wanted to begin with, you're gonna get people who don't like the original buying it.

It's not that hard to understand.

You're sort of losing me here ... it's hard?  For someone with problems of some sort, maybe ... for the rest of we just stop playing that game and play something else.

---

Warren Marshall
Level Designer/Programmer/Corporate Shill
Epic Games (www.epicgames.com)
#50 by "None1a"
2000-12-03 23:27:07
none1a@home.com
The whole Region1/Region2 thing shows exactly how moneygrabbing the DVD scene is. Plus a lot of people don't have a DVD player.


Bet it take me less then three seconds to find a hack for my creative DVD drive that will play any thing no matter the reagion (yeap, found one). Wonder how long it'll take me to find a DVD player with no region locks (O my god first site on the search results).

Any on that feeds me the I don't have a DVD player crap gets a swift boot in the ass. Nothing out their is on DVD only, if you don't have a player just buy the damn VHS version (if you can't afford a DVD player it's unlikly the rest of your stuff would show much of an imporvment anyway). A cheap DVD player cost what around $100, you could pick up a creative 2x DVD drive with a dxr2 board for less (the setup I'm using right now).

Yes I know Jam you where just throwing arguments out there, so am I ok.
C O M M E N T S
Home » Topic: Your Mission Pack - Should You Choose to Accept It?

|«« - Previous Page - Next Page - »»|
P O S T   A   C O M M E N T

You need to be logged in to post a comment here. If you don't have an account yet, you can create one here. Registration is free.
C R A P T A G S
Simple formatting: [b]bold[/b], [i]italic[/i], [u]underline[/u]
Web Links: [url=www.mans.de]Cool Site[/url], [url]www.mans.de[/url]
Email Links: [email=some@email.com]Email me[/email], [email]some@email.com[/email]
Simple formatting: Quoted text: [quote]Yadda yadda[/quote]
Front Page (ATOM) • Submission Bin (2) • ArchivesUsersLoginCreate Account
You are currently not logged in.
There are currently 0 people browsing this site. [Details]