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Team Arena: Look but don't touch
December 2nd 2000, 06:49 CET by Andy

Id Software has released a two-minute video of Team Arena to show off "a ton of never before seen features". So why weren't these features included in the demo?

According to Todd Hollenshead's .plan update announcing the release, the video "contains scenes from our new large scale, terrain based maps". He continues: "Included in Team Arena are a number of never-seen-anywhere-before-now huge maps. These maps include castles, watchtowers, rivers, bunkers, forts, mountains and just about anything else you could want in battlegrounds of this magnitude."

This might set a few alarm bells ringing.

One common complaint about all of the Quake engines has been that they can't cope with large environments.

And the most common complaint about the demo of Team Arena is that the new features and rendering tricks cause a dramatic drop in frame rate for some users.

So it seems likely that these wonderfully tempting "new large scale, terrain based maps" will seriously affect performance on all but the most powerful systems.

Perhaps that's why the maps are being premiered in a video? Quake fans can be tempted by the "huge" environments they've been wanting for years, but won't have any idea how well their own machines will cope.
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Home » Topic: Team Arena: Look but don't touch

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#1 by "superion"
2000-12-02 06:52:58
superion@spacemoose.com
first, and if i must say, the TA demo while at first unimpressive, has grown on me.

i started jonsing for ctf and instead of reinstalling q3, i just fired up the demo. it's a tad too easy to get into a towering rage with the guard rune, and the kamikaze should be more subtle, but it is quite fun.

this after i turned off all the shitty UT clonerisms, like the voices and portraits.
#2 by "Terata"
2000-12-02 06:57:50
jstatz@ravensoft.com
There's nothing about Q3 preventing you from building a big open area.  Lots of vertices far apart isn't any slower than lots of vertices right next to each other -- keep things reasonably simple and there's no issue.  You could build and run a map like that right now using standard Q3 and it'd work just fine.
#3 by "undule"
2000-12-02 06:58:48
undule@tampabay.rr.com
Well it does seem a tad wonky -- if they have large scale maps of this sort, they certainly should have been in the demo, eh? It would have made an easier sell. The Q3 engine pulling off enormous terrain maps? what a fab stunt that will be -- it will be gorgeous I'm sure.

"shitty Ut clonerisms" -- hahaha, how the tides have turned.
#4 by "GeorgeBroussard"
2000-12-02 07:33:17
georgeb@3drealms.com
I see it all now...

The SubCraps are a very clever ploy to increase traffic for ad banners.  Go Morn! ;)

As for the terrain stuff...shoulda put that out as a demo so you can show your most impressive work.
#5 by "szcx"
2000-12-02 07:36:17
nedocze@hotmail.com
Id Software has released a two-minute video of Team Arena to show off "a ton of never before seen features". So why weren't these features included in the demo?


oh, god forbid they might have saved something for people who buy team arena.  who the hell do id think they are?  the demo should include everything the retail vesion contains.
#6 by "superion"
2000-12-02 07:52:58
superion@spacemoose.com
#4 plus he has a whole bunch of confirmed legit email address to sell as well now.
#7 by "Apache"
2000-12-02 08:01:51
apache@stomped.com
The SubCraps are a very clever ploy to increase traffic for ad banners. Go Morn! ;)


I love the subcraps, if you don't like the topics on the mainpage -- make your own, and start your own, fresh community.

You can visit my little end of the universe and share your opinions at:

http://apache.planetcrap.com

where the current topic is Star Wars Online: Galaxies.

If you would like to submit a topic in my little Fiefdom, you are also free to do that too.

I hope to see you there.
#8 by "paul"
2000-12-02 08:28:59
pbullman@webhitzone.com
I like subcraps to, except i won't plug mine. remember my name is paul, and i have a subcrap on planetcrap.com.

- Paul
#9 by "Crusader"
2000-12-02 08:39:28
crusader@linuxgames.com

And the most common complaint about the demo of Team Arena is that the new features and rendering tricks cause a dramatic drop in frame rate for some users.


I believe Duffy already stated he's determined the cause of the framerate drop (which id apparently was not anticipating), and that this will be fixed for the retail TA release.
#10 by "mcgrew"
2000-12-02 15:19:30
mcgrew@famvid.com
[4] GeorgeBroussard "The SubCraps are a very clever ploy to increase traffic for ad banners. Go Morn! ;)"

You just got that? George, you're getting senile! I posted the same thing last week (and more power to morn!)
 
[7] Apache "You can visit my little end of the universe and share your opinions at:
http://apache.planetcrap.com"

Thank you, Mr. wh0re! Now I can do some wh0ring of my own without feeling guilty! The Christmas page is up at theFragfest.com with the Quake Christmas carols, highly sought after skins (you have to hunt for the nudechick skin), MP3s, and of course the guns and ammo tree.

See Santa die by BFG.  BE Santa and die by BFG!

AND Yello (remember him?) posted at my subcrap at thefragfest.planetcrap.com
Anybody who doesn't remember Yello is a newbie.
 
Hey, I just noticed the i.p.s are back! Morn r0x0rz!
-steve
#11 by "Morn"
2000-12-02 15:37:23
morn@planetcrap.com http://www.planetcrap.com
George & mcgrew: Well, doh. :-)  Only problem right now is that I'm not actually getting any money from the banners. I've given up on those small-scale pay-per-click/affiliate places; they don't seem to be able to think farther than just "PlanetCRAP? DISCUSSION site? Bugger off!". Oh well.

- Morn
#12 by "legion88"
2000-12-02 17:08:01
legion88@yahoo.com
Morn is now officially an e-groupie for Amazon.com.:)

I agree with the sentiments shown by #6.  It is not unreasonable to assume that id Software didn't include "everything" in the demo.  Some of it is left for the retail version.  As I recall, the demo for Quake III didn't include a whole lot of levels, correct?

Oh yeah, the plug.  Visit Crappy Hardware Now! and see the same amazon.com banner ads (or should I say ad).
#13 by "Bobafart"
2000-12-02 17:48:07
bobafart@hotmail.com
there is a similar article here about Duffy's BOASTING and how slow the game is


<a href=http://gameseek.com/content.php?id=801>http://gameseek.com/content.php?id=801</a>
#14 by "Bobafart"
2000-12-02 17:48:32
bobafart@hotmail.com
http://gameseek.com/content.php?id=801

thats better
#15 by "xian"
2000-12-02 18:05:40
xian@idsoftware.com
There is no conspiracy. We only wanted to release one map for the demo. The terrain maps run just fine.

 As for Duke Nukem, they should put that out as a demo to dismiss all the vapourware claims and show their most impressive work.

 -Xian
#16 by "Barneyque"
2000-12-02 18:46:21
barneyque@hotmail.com
Duke Nukem is not vapourware, I've had it for several years. It was a good game in it's day, you should have tried it.
#17 by "Milamber"
2000-12-02 18:56:48
milamber@amoeba.com.au
Do I smell some inter-developer rivalry coming on?
#18 by "Crusader"
2000-12-02 19:16:10
crusader@linuxgames.com
For the disbelievers:

http://www.shugashack.com/funk.y?id=580882

Robert Duffy with some TA benches, and an explanation regarding the framerate issues in the first demo release.
#19 by "mcgrew"
2000-12-02 19:42:36
mcgrew@famvid.com
ACK! A sideways scroll bar!

[11] Morn "George & mcgrew: Well, doh. :-) Only problem right now is that I'm not actually getting any money from the banners."

Yeah, I know, I ran some amazon banners as a joke. CD Now banners are a joke too. Bummer, though, I'd really like to see you make some cash from pc, at least enough to cover costs.


[15] xian "There is no conspiracy."

Yeah, that's what the guy with the black suit and sunglasses said. Believe it! (consopiracy.. hehe)

[16] Barneyque "Duke Nukem is not vapourware, I've had it for several years."

IT?? What do you mean IT? I've been playing Duke Nukem since, what, 1988? 1989? Dn3D was the third game.
#20 by "GeorgeBroussard"
2000-12-02 20:01:28
georgeb@3drealms.com
Christian,

As for Duke Nukem, they should put that out as a demo to dismiss all the vapourware claims and show their most impressive work


Heh ;)  You shoulda just released a landscape map instead of the other one.  Much better marketing and it would have gotten people more excited is all (becasue it was something totally new to them).
#21 by "Vengeance"
2000-12-02 21:55:21
rhiggi@home.com
George and Co. is right.   id should have release a huge map with the demo.  Sorry, but the demo I played was Q3A with a different interface.  I was decidedly unimpressed.  The map was small,  the gameplay was nothing I wouldn't expect from a MOD (oooh new runes, what a novel idea).  

If I knew I wasn't getting smoke blown up my ass about large outdoor environments that didn't turn the "game" into a Powerpoint presentation, I might reconsider.

There are two ways to look at this.  Either they didn't put the "cool new stuff" in the demo because they are marketing morons, or because they have something to hide (ie. its the same ol' shit).  Considering its almost Christmas, I'm assuming the latter.

The days when I buy an id game just because of the name are over.

V
#22 by "Speed"
2000-12-02 22:25:03
speed@pandora.be
Marketing Morons... I love that :)

Soeed
#23 by "spanky"
2000-12-02 22:54:44
spanky@gamersangst.com
George,

I've got a better idea. How about some other developers give you suggestions on how to run your company, and maybe you'll ship product in the forseeable future.

Cheers,
spanky
#24 by "GeorgeBroussard"
2000-12-02 23:59:45
georgeb@3drealms.com
I've got a better idea. How about some other developers give you suggestions on how to run your company, and maybe you'll ship product in the forseeable future.


All I said was that I would rather have had a cool never-before-seen landscape CTF map.  You wouldn't want that?  Are you afraid of the outdoors, or trees or rabbits or something?

As for shipping games fast enough I think shipping games is our secondary concern now.  And posting on message boards is our primary business now.  I'm tyring to find a way to make money off it though.  Would you send me $1 to hear more opinions and get me on my way?
#25 by "Dreamspeaker"
2000-12-03 00:22:03
ashvin@babylonia.flatirons.org
GeorgeBroussard wrote in #24...

Are you afraid of the outdoors, or trees or rabbits or something?

Hey! Bunnies are scary; bunny demons are worse.

~~
Ignie Ferroque,
Ash. - "Non Facete Nobis Calcitrare Vestrvm Perinævm"
#26 by "Rambar"
2000-12-03 00:22:50
rambar@homegettingablowjob.com
As for shipping games fast enough I think shipping games is our secondary concern now. And posting on message boards is our primary business now. I'm tyring to find a way to make money off it though.


Exculsive membership boards?
--
Rambar
#27 by "WarrenMarshall"
2000-12-03 01:39:36
warren@epicgames.com
I agree with the sentiments shown by #6. It is not unreasonable to assume that id Software didn't include "everything" in the demo. Some of it is left for the retail version. As I recall, the demo for Quake III didn't include a whole lot of levels, correct?

No, but what George is saying is that it would have been cooler to see a new kind of technology in the demo rather than a map that could be done in Quake3 itself, with some mod code thrown in (save for the menus).  It might get people more pumped up about TA ... I mean, why talk about the terrain if you could have included it in the demo and shown people?
#28 by "legion88"
2000-12-03 03:54:44
legion88@yahoo.com
I should have said #5, not #6.  In any event,

#27,
No, but what George is saying is that it would have been cooler to see a new kind of technology in the demo rather than a map that could be done in Quake3 itself,....


Whether it would have been "cooler" is not relevant to my comment.  I was not discussing at all whether it would been "cooler" for id to showcase some newer material that the Q3A game did not provide already.  

My comment was in reference to Andy Smith's claim that there is something wrong and devious for id Software to not include this newer material in the Team Arena demo.  Let me quote from the editorial above:

Perhaps that's why the maps are being premiered in a video? .... won't have any idea how well their own machines will cope.


He is suggesting that id Software was trying to hide the possibility that the game will chug like a turtle with this new large terrain maps.  I'm suggesting that id Software is simply holding back the newer material for the real game and not for the demo.  

There is also the possiblity that id Software just picked a random map out of a hat.  But I think they were just simply holding back the newer material for the demo.  The video is used to advertise the fact that this new material exists.  From this point, curiosity will increase the sales of the game as people would want to see this large terrain maps on their own machines and not on a video.

Although this was not my originally point, I agree that it would have been "cooler" if id included these new maps in the demo.  It would have been "cooler" for the players but it would not have been good for marketing.  Other than the new maps, what additional "new stuff" does this game have over Quake III: Arena?   I have not been following this game so I actually do not know.  Would the average gamer know?  The demo would not peak people's curiosity as much as a video would.

[plug]Crappy Hardware[/plug]
#29 by "Speed"
2000-12-03 04:18:02
speed@pandora.be
I think ID is trying to do the same as Epic did with releasing video's and screenshots of their skeletal animation.
The sole difference is that Epic actually HAS new technology AND a new game in development that will use that new technology, while ID is trying to promote an add-on that defenitely shouldn't be sold at full price.

my 2 cents

Speed
Fragland.net
#30 by "SteveGibson"
2000-12-03 08:02:40
smiles@shugashack.com
its impossible to judge team arena from the demo. making statements about how id shouldnt be charging for the pack given how little we actually know about the product is just silly.

wait and see, then make your judgement.

it could end up sucking and being a turd still, but looking at that demo they released and then looking at that footage, there is certainly more to the pack to be seen before making a judgement on it.

oh and andy, you might want to update your story with this:
http://www.shugashack.com/funk.y?id=580882
#31 by "SteveBauman"
2000-12-03 08:04:11
steve@manic-pop-thrills.com
The full version of Alice has a few big vistas and large environments which don't cause the framerate to drop at all. I grabbed screens, so if anyone REALLY wants to see, I suppose I could e-mail them a shot.
#32 by "Crusader"
2000-12-03 18:01:49
crusader@linuxgames.com
#30,

Steve... scroll up, I already linked that ;)
#33 by "Sgt_Hulka"
2000-12-03 19:07:34
rwaring@ameritech.net
I like the Team Arena Headhunters mod thingie, that's fun.  Would definately like new maps. Have not seen this movie thingie yet, but don't really care to.  I'll wait til the price comes down on the mission pack and probably buy it when it's $15 bucks or so.  The new menu / HUD system in TA is very nice!     Terrain - Schmerain. Ain't a positive little bastard.
#34 by "SteveBauman"
2000-12-03 20:35:54
steve@manic-pop-thrills.com
I like the Team Arena Headhunters mod thingie, that's fun. Would definately like new maps. Have not seen this movie thingie yet, but don't really care to. I'll wait til the price comes down on the mission pack and probably buy it when it's $15 bucks or so. The new menu / HUD system in TA is very nice! Terrain - Schmerain. Ain't a positive little bastard.

Fanboy! Fanboy!
#35 by "Barneyque"
2000-12-03 21:10:01
barneyque@hotmail.com


[16] Barneyque "Duke Nukem is not vapourware, I've had it for several years."

[19] mcgrew  "IT?? What do you mean IT? I've been playing Duke Nukem since, what, 1988? 1989? Dn3D was the third game. "


What part of "IT" did you not understand?  I said I've had Duke Nukem for several years in the sentence did I not?  Perhaps I have used a pronoun in error, let me spell it out for you.

Duke Nukem is not vapourware, I've had Duke Nukem for several years.

While you might be the oldest fellow here, you do not have a monopoly on being a long time game player. I've only been on the planet for 32 or so years, but I've been gamming for a good 25 of those.
#36 by "Orpheus"
2000-12-04 08:34:21
RobertHeadley@email.com
I havent seen the large scale terrain maps, but, whats it like, is it like the new epic tech ?
or is it just... wide open spaces ?
I dunno about id, they seemed to be trapped in a paradox of always recreated Doom, sure doom was great. but, I prefer some kind of inovation, in other things than the graphics of a game.
#37 by "bago"
2000-12-04 21:48:27
manga_rando@hotmail.com
Woo! Another Andy Perf Conspiracy Thread! notices that the acronym also matches up with A PlanetCrap Topic...

Hmm.. co-incidence, or conspiracy?

Perhaps it's an effort to disenfranchise the crappers. I DEMAND A RECOUNT!
#38 by "Bracket"
2000-12-05 03:43:30
thebracket@yahoo.com
Morn - try www.amazingmedia.com for banners. They pay per thousand exposures, and their rates aren't bad. So far, they haven't plagued any of my sites with popups either - which is always good. Your rate does go down if very few (0.05% of people) click the banners, but the rates aren't bad even on the penalty rate!

I saw in the .plan update a mention that basically all they've changed is the maximum map size. They even noted that you have to use valleys/buildings to make sure that you don't see too much at once - so its not a terrain engine, its The Same Old Sh*t [and with recent publications indicating that the new Doom engine will reuse QIII code, I'm beginning to wonder if Carmack can actually progress beyond simple BSP+Portal implementations - which are optimal for winding corridors, but require all sorts of tricks to work properly outside].

I imagine that the reason the huge maps aren't in the Team Arena demo is that they take about 3 months each to compile+vis...
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