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Sorry, no time to test it!
November 4th 2000, 00:01 CET by morn

Okay, you can stop emailing us; here's a new thread for you. In a shocking (no, really!) turn of events, BlueByte have cancelled their public beta test of Settlers IV.



Here's what they're saying:

Blue Byte Maximizing The Settlers IV Development Schedule
Public Beta Test Canceled


It has been decided that to accomplish the timely release of The Settlers IV before Christmas this year, we will not be conducting a public beta test. We realize this will come as a disappointment to those of you who were looking forward to the test, and we are genuinely sorry for that, but we also believe the game and its fans will be best served through extensive internal testing and a subsequent pre-Christmas, bug-free release.

I think we all know where it will go from here. Do we care? Hmmm... do we?

C O M M E N T S
Home » Topic: Sorry, no time to test it!

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#1 by "Morn"
2000-11-04 00:02:14
morn@planetcrap.com http://www.planetcrap.com
LAST
#2 by "Morn"
2000-11-04 00:03:26
morn@planetcrap.com http://www.planetcrap.com
Addendum: the thread title may be a bit misleading, since BlueByte <i>are</i> going to test the game. Internally. Cool with me, and hopefully everybody else, too. And think about it, it's CHRISTMAS, dammit!

- Mörn
#3 by "Morn"
2000-11-04 00:04:42
morn@planetcrap.com http://www.planetcrap.com
I don't <i>really</i> know why I posted this.

- Mörn
#4 by "Morn"
2000-11-04 00:05:37
morn@planetcrap.com http://www.planetcrap.com
And before you ask: yes, the old colours are going to be back, like, really soon. What year is it again?

- Mörn
#5 by "Warren Marshall"
2000-11-04 00:07:33
warren@epicgames.com http://www.epicgames.com
<b>Morn</b> (#2):
<QUOTE>Addendum: the thread title may be a bit misleading, since BlueByte <I>are</I> going to test the game. Internally. </QUOTE>

Thank you.  :)  That was going to be my point when I started reading this one.  So there's no public beta test ... and the problem is?  Are people actually upset about this?

--

Warren Marshall - Professional Nuisance<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#6 by "bagofmice"
2000-11-04 00:22:09
rcastle@microsoft.com
yeah.. mmk. Anyone seen my eye?
#7 by "Ryslin"
2000-11-04 00:26:26
ryslinmoon@yahoo.com
great so now we blather about settlers iv

btw..anyone seen culture yet!?

take settlers and get the darn walkers off the roads..and give women babies and homes!

dont know what i think of it yet?!?


waiting for Monopoly tycoon..Steve set up a website on it...
#8 by "warmonger"
2000-11-04 00:28:45
warmonger87@hotmail.com
Let's see if we can make it 3 topics in a row to make it to 700 posts! Come on, it'll be fun!<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#9 by "Morn"
2000-11-04 00:38:24
morn@planetcrap.com http://www.planetcrap.com
<b>#5</b> "Warren Marshall" wrote...
<QUOTE>Thank you. :) That was going to be my point when I started reading this one. So there's no public beta test ... and the problem is? Are people actually upset about this?</QUOTE>

I don't know -- I guess a lot of people who were looking forward to playing the game early will be very upset, but who cares about those hopeless fools, anyway. ;-)

However, I don't think game companies run public beta tests simply for the fun of it. Someone (at Bluebyte), at some point of time, must have had the idea of running a public beta test for Settlers IV, and whatever the purpose was, it apparently wasn't important enough to risk missing the "people will buy ANYTHING" deadline of Christmas.

Personally, I don't care. I just wanted the voices to go away. :)

- Mörn<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#10 by "Crusader"
2000-11-04 00:56:07
crusader@linuxgames.com http://www.linuxgames.com
Morn is holding Randy's sanity hostage... restore the old colors immediately so we can have the old less-crack-addled bagofmice back!
#11 by "deadcoil"
2000-11-04 01:04:44
deadcoil2000@yahoo.com http://impure.org/flem
[4] Morn
That was going to be MY point when I read this.  Heh.
Actually, even though the game in question is SO not on my list, it should be noted that they may be making a huge mistake.  Without public testing, you have no ability to see outside of your own creative scope as far as gameplay.  Bugs WILL come up that didn't happen internally in the test phase, and you also leave out a great deal of player feedback.  

Yes, if that game Daikatana had publicly Beta Tested, it would have been SO much better than the fucking BSOD farmer that it was.  The game probab...

Wait a sec.

Never mind.
#12 by "Warren Marshall"
2000-11-04 01:11:22
warren@epicgames.com http://www.epicgames.com
<b>Morn</b> (#9):
<QUOTE>However, I don't think game companies run public beta tests simply for the fun of it. Someone (at Bluebyte), at some point of time, must have had the idea of running a public beta test for Settlers IV, and whatever the purpose was, it apparently wasn't important enough to risk missing the "people will buy ANYTHING" deadline of Christmas. </QUOTE>

Well, it may also be that it's not necessary.  Public betas require a lot of organization and planning if you hope to get anything of benefit out of them.  Maybe they just decided that their internal testing is going to be enough.

Which comes around to the fact that gamers are getting damn greedy these days.  :)  A public beta is a cool bonus, not a right.  ;)

--

Warren Marshall - Professional Nuisance<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#13 by "Morn"
2000-11-04 01:17:12
morn@planetcrap.com http://www.planetcrap.com
<b>#12</b> "Warren Marshall" wrote...
<QUOTE>Well, it may also be that it's not necessary. Public betas require a lot of organization and planning if you hope to get anything of benefit out of them. Maybe they just decided that their internal testing is going to be enough.</QUOTE>

Very true.

- Mörn
<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#14 by "BarneyQue"
2000-11-04 01:22:59
barneyque@hotmail.com
I don't care much about the public beta stuff, but I DO hope there's something of a demo at some point.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#15 by "MCorleone"
2000-11-04 01:39:00
kurin6@home.com
I thought the defection of Brian Burke from 3dfx to NVidia would have warranted a thread.  I don't blame the guy for wanting to be on the winning team, but there's always that lingering question...
#16 by "Crusader"
2000-11-04 01:43:04
crusader@linuxgames.com http://www.linuxgames.com/
<b>#15</b>, MCorleone sez:
<quote>
I thought the defection of Brian Burke from 3dfx to NVidia would have warranted a thread. I don't blame the guy for wanting to be on the winning team, but there's always that lingering question...
</quote>

I find it amusing given how rabid Brian Burke gets about whatever product he's pushing, but really... he's a PR guy, who cares? It's not like he's a card engineer or driver coder...
#17 by "BarneyQue"
2000-11-04 02:00:13
barneyque@hotmail.com
<b>#15</b> "MCorleone" wrote...
<QUOTE>I thought the defection of Brian Burke from 3dfx to NVidia would have warranted a thread. I don't blame the guy for wanting to be on the winning team, but there's always that lingering question...
</QUOTE>

Speaking of the man, here's a little interview with the man.

http://www.ga-hardware.com/features.cfm?id=nvidiabb<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#18 by "Timdog"
2000-11-04 05:48:30
thetimdog@hotmail.com
On the main topic:

I can't see any reason why Blue Byte would do this. In-house testing can only take things so far, it tends not to cover any kind of weird incomapatibilities that are caused by different hardware combinations that exist in the PC world, or cover every possible path through the game.

General rule of thumb is that developers can prove that it *can* work, but it takes a hell of a lot of people to ensure that a product is bug free.

<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#19 by "Warren Marshall"
2000-11-04 06:30:23
warren@epicgames.com http://www.epicgames.com
<b>Timdog</b> (#18):
<QUOTE>I can't see any reason why Blue Byte would do this. In-house testing can only take things so far, it tends not to cover any kind of weird incomapatibilities that are caused by different hardware combinations that exist in the PC world, or cover every possible path through the game. </QUOTE>

When they say "internal testing" I'm quite sure they aren't talking about themselves.  They're referring to their publishers testing team ...

--

Warren Marshall - Professional Nuisance<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#20 by "George Broussard"
2000-11-04 06:44:28
georgeb@3drealms.com
<quote>They're referring to their publishers testing team ... </quote>

Publisher testing teams suck major ass.  They are damned near worthless from my experience.

If you don't do the testing yourself, or with your own set of 20 or so external beta testers, you are screwed.  Publisher testing groups just don't catch anything.  And the feedback loop is slow as hell.

Publisher testing should be a last chance catch-all, after the developer is fairly sure they have a bug free game (from their own testing).

My .44 cents.
#21 by "Glock"
2000-11-04 07:19:44
glock17@tampabay.rr.com
Eh?  George, could this just be Infogrames, or are you talking about all publishers in general?
#22 by "None-1a"
2000-11-04 08:01:31
none1a@home.com http://www.geocities.com/none-1a/
It's a little bit conserning that it's taken this long to deside internal testing would be faster. From what it's sounds up untill this point the internal testing hasn't been realyl in depth, if that is the case can they really get a relativly bug free game out by x-mas?
--
None-1a.

O forget it.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#23 by "Terata"
2000-11-04 08:20:52
jstatz@ravensoft.com
That's generally been our experience as well.  Towards the end of the project most of the art types are usually left without a ton to do, so they run through the game and work as our in-house QA and verify fixes as they get made.  Much more efficient and more thorough since they've been working on the game and know what's SUPPOSED to happen, and can go over and talk to someone right away if it's urgent.
#24 by "Mark Asher"
2000-11-04 09:34:47
marka@cdmnet.com
Obviously, the original planned public beta for Settlers 4 was just a PR move. You don't risk missing a holiday release just to have a PR beta test.

Anyway, Settlers 4 is just a European thing anyway, Morn. Can't you please come up with a topic which deals with America being at the center of the universe? Thanks.

(BTW, the most interesting thing about Blue Byte as far as the center of the universe goes -- i.e., the US -- is that they are selling their games direct and not through retail in the U.S. starting with Battle Isle Androsia. Now that's an interesting strategy.)
#25 by "Warren Marshall"
2000-11-04 09:43:36
warren@epicgames.com http://www.epicgames.com
<b>Glock</b> (#21):
<QUOTE>Eh? George, could this just be Infogrames, or are you talking about all publishers in general? </QUOTE>

George hates all publishers in all ways.  :)

<b>Terata</b> (#23):
<QUOTE>That's generally been our experience as well. Towards the end of the project most of the art types are usually left without a ton to do, so they run through the game and work as our in-house QA and verify fixes as they get made. Much more efficient and more thorough since they've been working on the game and know what's SUPPOSED to happen, and can go over and talk to someone right away if it's urgent. </QUOTE>

Yeah, but that's not always good.  Developers testing the game tend to have VERY large blinders on.  They play the game the same way all the time and don't try to go outside the box too much, so they don't break the game the way professional testers do.

Plus by the time a game gets out the door, the developers are generally pretty freakin sick of playing it.  So they won't have their whole hearts in it, playing through for the 300th time.  :)

--

Warren Marshall - Professional Nuisance<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#26 by "George Broussard"
2000-11-04 10:24:32
georgeb@3drealms.com
Glock,

<quote>Eh? George, could this just be Infogrames, or are you talking about all publishers in general? </quote>

It's what I hear from virtually every developer I've talked to.  We haven't shipped a major pc title in a bit, so our experience is from the "old" days ;)  But it's still all true.

Warren:

<quote>Yeah, but that's not always good. Developers testing the game tend to have VERY large blinders on. They play the game the same way all the time and don't try to go outside the box too much, so they don't break the game the way professional testers do. </quote>

To an extent.  We've found that the team cares more and we purposely TRY to break maps, if nothing else than to point at the designer and laugh ;)  So from internal testing and a select handful of about 20 external testers we usually end up pretty bug free.  Duke 3D and Shadow Warrior both had one minor patch after release for non-show stopper bugs.

In the end, honestly, publishers don't give a shit about your game.  It hits the testing group that gets paid $6/hour and they have 10 other games to test.  How much do you really think they care or want to play through your game?

No, you gotta do it yourself or use select beta testers.  Publishers are a catch-all for hardware incompatabilities mainly.

<quote>Plus by the time a game gets out the door, the developers are generally pretty freakin sick of playing it. So they won't have their whole hearts in it, playing through for the 300th time. :) </quote>

That's why it's a "job" ;)  I recall making a checklist of resolutions, skill levels, input devices etc for Shadow Warrior (once we thought we were gold) and passing them out.  We'd all play it at our assigned setting, and write down issues.

Any major bugs, and you'd get em fixed, and start all over again.  This process repeats until everyone plays the game through on a clean install with no show stopper bugs.  It can take a couple weeks and it's grueling, but it's effective.  We'd single play for "work", then DeathMatch for "fun" at night.
#27 by "Apache"
2000-11-04 10:26:29
apache@stomped.com http://www.voodooextreme.com
Really smart game companies give beta copies of the game to their web journo pals to help test. :)
#28 by "Warren Marshall"
2000-11-04 11:55:48
warren@epicgames.com http://www.epicgames.com
<b>George Broussard</b> (#26):
<QUOTE>In the end, honestly, publishers don't give a shit about your game. It hits the testing group that gets paid $6/hour and they have 10 other games to test. How much do you really think they care or want to play through your game?

No, you gotta do it yourself or use select beta testers. Publishers are a catch-all for hardware incompatabilities mainly.
</QUOTE>

I think they care.  I know that on Wheel of Time, Infogrames reported many bugs to us through doing stuff that we hadn't thought of.  So it's valuable.  Sure, we did in-house testing but I still believe that developers get blinders near the end of the project.  Even if it's just subconciously.  They don't want to find problems.  They just want to be done.  :)

Don't take that to mean that they don't care ... but when it's 5:00am and you're playing the game for the 12th time in 2 days and you've been up for 20+ hours ... well, let's just say that breaking the game isn't real high on the list of things you'd like to do.  ;)

<b>Apache</b> (#27):
<QUOTE>Really smart game companies give beta copies of the game to their web journo pals to help test. :)
</QUOTE>

Who then leak it to the warez groups.  *cough*  ;)

--

Warren Marshall - Professional Nuisance<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#29 by "Apache"
2000-11-04 12:08:05
apache@stomped.com http://www.voodooextreme.com
<quote>Who then leak it to the warez groups. *cough* ;) </quote>

I don't think many web journos leak games to pirates. Not real ones at least. Most companies don't even send out NDA's anymore; laziness? Maybe. Regardless -- most games get leaked to warez at the duplication plants ($6.75 an hour labourers looking to pick up some pirate cash) or internally at some level as proven by the number of games which hit warez before they are sent out for review/preview purposes.

The idea that press leak games to warez is a serious misnomer.
#30 by "RahvinTaka"
2000-11-04 12:13:38
donaldp@mad.scientist.com
<b>#29</b> "Apache" wrote...
<QUOTE>The idea that press leak games to warez is a serious ***misnomer***. </QUOTE>

Is that the word you wanna use?
;)
<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#31 by "Apache"
2000-11-04 12:41:54
apache@stomped.com http://www.voodooextreme.com
whatever, it's 4:41 am and Im waiting to post movies from the "NAME THAT GAME ENGINE!" game thingie if the servers ever come back up ;)
#32 by "Crusader"
2000-11-04 13:04:45
crusader@linuxgames.com http://www.linuxgames.com
<b>#31</b> "Apache" wrote...
<quote>
whatever, it's 4:41 am and Im waiting to post movies from the "NAME THAT GAME ENGINE!" game thingie if the servers ever come back up ;)
</quote>

It's AvP2!
#33 by "MCorleone"
2000-11-04 13:23:59
kurin6@home.com
Apache, can you go to school and get this illustrious "Real web journo" certificate that you speak so highly of?  Do you have to go to school or is this something that you and others dubiously bestow on those you feel worthy?

"I...  (pause for effect) am a REAL web journo.  My morals are unquestionable and I am the pinnacle of ethics..."

Sorry.  That statement just struck me as arrogantly pretentious.
#34 by "Apache"
2000-11-04 13:28:38
apache@stomped.com http://www.voodooextreme.com
<quote>Apache, can you go to school and get this illustrious "Real web journo" certificate that you speak so highly of? Do you have to go to school or is this something that you and others dubiously bestow on those you feel worthy? </quote>

Yeah, it's called the school of hard knocks. What and where you go with it is up to you.

<quote>"I... (pause for effect) am a REAL web journo. My morals are unquestionable and I am the pinnacle of ethics..." </quote>

Uhhhhh I think I missed where I said that dude. That statement of yours struck me as stupid.
#35 by "MCorleone"
2000-11-04 15:24:28
kurin6@home.com
You appear to be incapable of understanding your own speech.  Allow me to illustrate:

"I don't think many web journos leak games to pirates. Not real ones at least. "

Through the miracle of modern ASCII text, let's follow the leaps of logic:

(Your quote)

||
\/

Real web "journos" have impeccable ethics

||
\/

(My paraphrasing of your statement)



Follow?

School of hard knocks.  Uh huh.  Can you walk me through _your_ logic on "Real web journo" to "School of hard knocks"?  I really don't feel like waiting for your autobiography.
#36 by "podfish"
2000-11-04 16:33:21
llama@verbalchilli.com http://www.verbalchilli.com
#35 MCorleone

You've kind of misconstrued the meaning of that statement. Wasn't Apache merely saying that web-hacks who leak games don't deserve the title.
#37 by "podfish"
2000-11-04 16:38:09
llama@verbalchilli.com http://www.verbalchilli.com
#35 MCorleone

You've kind of misconstrued the meaning of that statement. Wasn't Apache merely saying that web-hacks who leak games don't deserve the title? i.e. that their real motives are to pirate games and not to write articles.
#38 by "MCorleone"
2000-11-04 16:49:41
kurin6@home.com
Pod, that's quite possible.  I'm neither a Real Web Journo or a False Web Journo, so I'm not familiar with the denizens of that particular industry.  

If that's what you meant, Apache, then I apologize.  I took it as you drawing a line in the sand, saying "Real Web Journo = good" (presumably based on hitcounts), "Littleguy Web Journo = bad"

But let's not get all negative on this fine Saturday Morn
#39 by "podfish"
2000-11-04 16:50:44
llama@verbalchilli.com http://www.verbalchilli.com
Okay - how about this for an exciting discussion topic? -

The killers of Jamie Bulger - released, detained, burned at the stake??? What do you guys think?

For those of you who don't know what the heck I'm on about: a 2 year old was abducted and stoned to death by two ten year-olds, apparently influenced by violent horror movies. Everybody was very shocked and appalled etc. and these two boys are shut up for 8 years. Now they are on the verge of being released there have been lots of emotional discussions about what should be done with them. The family of Jamie Bulger is calling for them to increase their detainment and the father is threatening to hunt them down and kill them if they are released. Various tabloids think we should have them covered in kerosine and their burning corpses used to illuminate Tower Bridge, calls are being made for capital punishment to be brought back in, and disgustingly few people seem to believe in reformation.
#40 by "MCorleone"
2000-11-04 17:09:46
kurin6@home.com
ewww, There's a topic with Meat and Gristle!
#41 by "Steve Bauman"
2000-11-04 19:53:53
steve@manic-pop-thrills.com http://www.manic-pop-thrills.com
<quote>Really smart game companies give beta copies of the game to their web journo pals to help test. :) </quote>
But really smart web journos know this is a conflict of interest and would never volunteer to test the products from a company readers trust you to cover with some objectivity.

Come review time, how do readers feel knowing that the person who's supposed to be offering as objective an opinion as possible had a hand in shaping a game to their specific tastes? It could skew the review in either direction if their direction was ignored or followed.

Sure, it's more about perception rather than literal influence peddling, but you gotta maintain some distance from the things you cover, folks...
#42 by "Dethstryk"
2000-11-04 20:08:35
dethstryk@damagegaming.com http://www.damagegaming.com/
Steve! Welcome back. :)


--
Dethstryk
#43 by "Warren Marshall"
2000-11-04 21:35:06
warren@epicgames.com http://www.epicgames.com
<b>Apache</b> (#29):
<QUOTE>The idea that press leak games to warez is a serious misnomer. </QUOTE>

Except for the recent debacle with Rune.  True, it could have come from other sources, but any time the game leaves your office the risk is there.  Hell, if you don't treat your employees properly the threat could come from within as well ...

<b>MCorleone</b> (#33):
<QUOTE>Sorry. That statement just struck me as arrogantly pretentious. </QUOTE>

Apache?!  No!!  ;)

<b>MCorleone</b> (#38):
<QUOTE>But let's not get all negative on this fine Saturday Morn </QUOTE>

What's Morn got to do with this?  :P

--

Warren Marshall - Professional Nuisance<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#44 by "Desiato"
2000-11-04 21:39:28
desiato_hotblack@hotmail.com http://www.spew2.com/
Just remember the stupid journo that leaked the Half-Life Beta test..

Oh yeah -- online journos are saints...suuuuuure.

*guffaw*

I'll try to choke back my laughter -- especially after the Rune fiasco...online "journalist" again.

Wow -- with journos like that, who needs a pirate group?

Desiato..
#45 by "Steve Bauman"
2000-11-04 22:13:30
steve@manic-pop-thrills.com http://www.manic-pop-thrills.com
As I understand it, the Rune leak was from the duplicator as opposed to a journalist, but unless the CDs were branded I don't think you could tell. Journalists typically get games after they've been sent to duplicators, not before. I don't doubt some people out there would leak a game; why they'd risk throwing away their reputation with the industry in order to boost it with warez kiddies is a mystery.

The solution to this problem is to either stop sending golds altogether or only send them to reputable publications that have earned your trust. We've been around for 10 years, and I suspect people understand that if someone from our publication put up a game on a warez site, they'd immediately be fired. But if it's a one-man web operation that's just started up, you need to consider whether or not sending the game for that jump on coverage is worth the risk.

But we're seeing more and more draconian protection schemes on "gold" copies of games, so much so that we've been forced to stop reviewing from golds because they're no longer the same version of the games being sold on shelves (which makes the "gold" designation something of a misnomer). Red Alert 2 had a C-Dilla expiration wrapper on it that would not work at all with Windows Me. 4x4 Evolution verifies itself with a central server before launching. In both cases, this protection is not present in the version sitting on shelves, and that's something to keep in mind when reading all of those early reviews. They may as well be from beta copies of the game, because it's not the same version. Unlike other publications, I haven't submitted a 4x4 Evolution review specifically because I need to verify the boxed version is functionally identical to this "gold" version (with additional copy protection) I have.

I have no problems with companies protecting their code in this manner (except for the fact no one in our office could run Red Alert 2 since we all run Me), but it only allows us to get a head start on a review, not actually consider it final reviewable code.
#46 by "deadcoil"
2000-11-04 22:36:57
deadcoil2000@yahoo.com http://impure.org/flem
Re: [39] podfish
Jesus, it's been 8 years already.  
I still think that the parents of those kids should have been publicly flayed.  I understand the emotions that the Bulger family is feeling, but jeesus on a TRISCUIT, folks, if a ten year old is doing something that Fucked Up (tm), then perhaps we should hold the parents of such kids accountable?

Re: [41] Steve Bauman
Military Intelligence.
Religious Education.
Completely Unfinished.
Original Copy.
Uninvited Guest.
Government Organization.
Dress Pants.
Microsoft Works.
And now, the newest addition:
Online Journalism.
#47 by "Steve Bauman"
2000-11-04 22:59:50
steve@manic-pop-thrills.com http://www.manic-pop-thrills.com
Deadcoil, I'm not so cynical to consider Online Journalism an oxymoron, though in its current state, and as it relates to videgaming, I also wouldn't argue against it. But it's just the majority of people doing it generally don't have a lot of experience or aren't considering the ethics of many of their actions.

And why should they? Readers will visit pages with even the most compromised ethics because... well, it's all free. And if they have that screenshot you want to see, most people don't show the self-control to not visit.
#48 by "Demonicuss"
2000-11-05 00:43:33
dwendorf@usa.net
Well, after reading these interesting and educational posts for weeks now, it's time for me to rise up and join in.

Might as well get this outta the way:  FIRST POST!  Which, technically is true, it's my first post to PlanetCrap.

Now, about Settlers IV having no beta test, if they release the game bug-free, then I'm a happy camper.  If it's as buggy as Ultima Assention, Demonicuss=Pissed Off MotherFucker

Concerning journalists leaking games, Hell, anybody leaking games, it's bad, obviously.

Concerning the Bulger killers:  Let the fuckers rot in the hole.  Now, how did these gene-pool rejects get the idea that killing a little kid would be cool?  I have two ideas:

1.  The parents did a BAD JOB PARENTING.
2.  The parents did a good job parenting, the kids were just BORN EVIL FUCKS.

God, I hope that the new administration (which I pray is Nader, but know won't be.  Why is it that the media play up the jackholes from the two Parties, and not the real competent peoples?) realize that they should be spending less time restricting the freedoms of many just because a few can't handle themselves, and try to deal with the TRUE problems.

Well, I'm through ranting.  Hope to see all you fine gentlemen in the near future.

--Demonicuss
#49 by "Apache"
2000-11-05 01:16:06
apache@stomped.com http://www.voodooextreme.com
Steve wrote:
<quote>The solution to this problem is to either stop sending golds altogether or only send them to reputable publications that have earned your trust. We've been around for 10 years, and I suspect people understand that if someone from our publication put up a game on a warez site, they'd immediately be fired. But if it's a one-man web operation that's just started up, you need to consider whether or not sending the game for that jump on coverage is worth the risk.</quote>

Another solution I was thinking of was to make games so large in size that people would not be willing to download them. I don't think Baldur's Gate II ever hit warez, did it?
#50 by "deadcoil"
2000-11-05 01:29:16
deadcoil2000@yahoo.com http://impure.org/flem
Re: [48] Demonicuss
I actually agree with you, to a degree.  At the same time, I have several friends who have done hard time and, strangely enough, learned their lesson because of it.  (I realize this is not the norm - I also have friends who treat Jail Time like a free hotel.)

If I'd done 8 years for a crime I'd committed at the vile, blasphemous age of TEN YEARS OLD *crash of thunder*, I'd want people to judge me for who I am NOW.  It's that simple.  If these guys were even 4 years older than they were at the time of the killing, hell god fuck yes, impale them on poles outside of city hall and let the public watch them slowly die.  But they were KIDS, for fuck's sake, and to me, this is where a touch of that "Parental Obligation To Make Sure Your Child Isn't A Sick Fuck" thing comes into play.  

Let 'em out.  They did their time.  See if they're STILL sick fucks, and if that's the case, give 'em a sicilian necktie each.  But there is a damned good chance that they are not now the same as they were at the <I>ripe old age of 10</I>.
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