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T O P I C
The Mod Community
September 23rd 2000, 20:43 CEST by Darkseid-D

id Software have just put out a point release for Quake 3 Arena. Now labelled a beta, it has some..... interesting features



Lord knows that most games coming out today have issues. Daikatana, was one big issue from start to finish. Sin had issues that spoiled its initial impact, but were soon addressed. Even the mighty Half Life had a limp and insipid multiplayer component. Arguably, even today, it's still lacking in many peoples eyes. With it's more popular multiplayer components being add ons. However, with the quality of Team Fortress Classic and Counter Strike, there is little said. Strange, that Half life still has weak DM, and bar a user created CTF mod pretty much no team based facility.

Unreal Tournament raised the bar when it comes to online games. They finally sorted out the networking code, and turgid weaponry that made Unreal a weak online experience. Epic provided several modes of gameplay, CTF, DM, Domination and Assault. On top of that they provided a very easy to use Mutator system, several of which could be applied at once for interesting effect. Instagib with low gravity, or Sniper arena with Fatboy, many possible combinations. The community created lots of small mutators, including the hilarious StrangeLove and entertaining Matrix Moves. Total conversions like LOADED-UT, Rocket Arena3, Infiltration and Strike Force round out the overall experience. With updates and codebase patches some mods got broken, but were quickly fixed. Epic lent a hand to help fix those issues, just as Valve did when their codebase changes broke mod releases.

Last night, id uploaded point release 1.25, a 17.5mb brute of a download. New sounds, new bot logic, new code tweaks, new features like changable heads. Changes to the scoring and logic of the DM and CTF, bug fixes and anti cheating enhancements. Perhaps id listened to the gaming community, the cd check has been removed for multiplayer games as well, Epic take note!

The size of this point release is bad enough, but, they say it's for a good cause: To bring the code base in line with Team Arena. Now I've never really understood what Team Arena is going to be . Is team arena going to be a free download, or another retail product, even cut price, for the Christmas season. This isn't what I'm flagging here, however. The update breaks an awful lot of mods. When this was highlighted on various fan sites, the point release quickly became tagged a beta. What to do if the release broke your code? simple, dont install it, or recompile your mods.

The mod community is arguably the lifeblood of an online game, without them, the game quickly fades from memory. Compare if you will, the community still playing Quake to that of say Blood2, quite a difference. Valve and Epic offered assitance in fixing problems, quite often _before_ the patch was released ( note in particular Valve's actions in delaying 1.010 to allow mod groups to create fixes). So, has id slipped even farther from touch with the gaming community, or is it unfair to judge them because they haven't taken onboard what their competitors are doing.

Before anyone proclaims me an Epic fanboy or a Lithfanboy or 3DRfanboy or even an id-hater, I like and play games from all of the above. Im just flagging the difference in approach to the mod groups that id appears to have. Now, have at it (and quit bitching about new topics, Ive had _no_ submissions)

Ds

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#1 by "Darkseid-[D!]"
2000-09-23 20:44:54
Darkseid-d@planetcrap.com http://www.pcinformer.co.uk
Once again, Dont even think about it.

and no 'not first posts either'


Oi, Cleghorn, get your student ass back to PC!


Ds<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#2 by "Morn"
2000-09-23 20:46:47
morn@planetcrap.com http://www.planetcrap.com
THIRST!

- Morn
#3 by "szcx"
2000-09-23 20:49:11
didn't valve offer assistance to <i>selected</i> mod authors?  if id had done the same thing i'm sure the topic would suddenly be about bias.

people complained about bugs, id fixed them.  do you think id are under some obligation to test every mod and see if it still works?

off topic, but what ever happened to that UT rocket arena that had all the support from epic?  was it released?
#4 by "Morn"
2000-09-23 20:53:56
morn@planetcrap.com http://www.planetcrap.com
Another thing of note: This 1.25 point release is supposed to be installed on top of the 1.17 point release (it says so in the readme.txt). Feel the pain!

- Morn
#5 by "Andy"
2000-09-23 20:55:22
andy@planetcrap.com http://www.meejahor.com/
Team Arena is a commercial add-on.

Is this the first time someone else has posted two topics in a row?!

Thanks Darkseid. :-)

I've got a similar topic to this one coming up today/tomorrow so I'll leave my bitter ranting until then. Not that I'd ever rant bitterly, of course...
#6 by "Paul"
2000-09-23 21:23:50
paul@shrinkweb.com http://www.shrinkweb.com
A warning before hand would have been my choice of action if I were id. Or, maybe id should have released the source code to popular mod developers a week before releasing the entire update to the public.

How do you define popular mod developers? Those who have more than 3 servers typically online. That could easily filter out hundreds of mods.

- Paul
#7 by "Warren Marshall"
2000-09-23 21:27:09
warren@epicgames.com http://www.epicgames.com
<b>szcx</b> (#3):
<QUOTE>people complained about bugs, id fixed them. do you think id are under some obligation to test every mod and see if it still works?
</QUOTE>

No, but if they expect the mod community to stay happy (<i>which is in id's best interest</i>), they should at least try to maintain compatibility between versions where possible.

And changing the physics model after the game has shipped?  That sounds BAD in so many ways ...

--

Warren Marshall - Professional Nuisance<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#8 by "Darren Coleman"
2000-09-23 21:36:16
durzel@barrysworld.com
<QUOTE>And changing the physics model after the game has shipped? That sounds BAD in so many ways ...</QUOTE>

Sadly this is exactly what many of the more hardcore, professional Q3A players did shortly after the original was released.  They decided (or rather asserted) that the game in its original form, the physics in particular were not geared to professional play - and consequently developed a mod, suitably entitled "pro-mode".

It's no secret that John Carmack was a bit disenchanted with these actions (and who could blame him) - so maybe he is justified in leaning towards a mod-making stream he will be able to control (and profit from)..
#9 by "BarneyQue"
2000-09-23 21:44:34
barneyque@hotmail.com
They will be releasing the source in a few days to allow the mod makers to fix everything up.  If I had my way, I would have had them sit on the patch for a few days, send it to the known popular mods when it was ready, then release the whole lot of it all at once.


But then, that's just me.  I'm sure there's a vaild reason for doing things the way they do, I try not to pretend to know better than they do even if it might seen otherwise sometimes.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#10 by "Morn"
2000-09-23 21:58:59
morn@planetcrap.com http://www.planetcrap.com
Just got this via email:

<quote>The CPL announces that it will be using Quake III Arena version 1.17 for the upcoming Frag 4 Team Tournament. Rather than using the new version 1.25 . The CPL is choosing to reward those teams that have practiced using Q3A version 1.17 in anticipation of Frag 4, by not changing the game version on a short notice.</quote>

- Morn
#11 by "flamethrower"
2000-09-23 22:12:00
flamethrower@barrysworld.com http://flamethrower.evilavatar.com
Q3A? Bleh. Who cares? <b>The Deux Ex SDK is out!!</b><I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#12 by "PiRaMidA"
2000-09-23 22:15:44
piramida@agsm.net http://www.agsm.net
Post <b>#10</b> by Morn:
<QUOTE><i>
Just got this via email: ...
</i></QUOTE>

Very reasonable thing to do... Some of the fixed bugs were essential gameplay features for pro gamers. Btw, it seems that no online servers are running the new release. None of the most popular ones, even pure DM servers...
<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#13 by "Warren Marshall"
2000-09-23 22:18:28
warren@epicgames.com http://www.epicgames.com
<b>BarneyQue</b> (#9):
<QUOTE>They will be releasing the source in a few days to allow the mod makers to fix everything up. If I had my way, I would have had them sit on the patch for a few days, send it to the known popular mods when it was ready, then release the whole lot of it all at once. </QUOTE>

Why just the popular mods?  All they had to do was put it on their FTP site and tell mods to update ... "You have a week to do this, because when the new patch ships, all of your mods are going to break.  This way, everyone can be ready at the same time."

--

Warren Marshall - Professional Nuisance<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#14 by "BarneyQue"
2000-09-23 22:23:15
barneyque@hotmail.com
<b>#13</b> "Warren Marshall" wrote...
<QUOTE><B>BarneyQue</B> (<A href="spy-internal:Load/156#9">#9</A>):

<quote>They will be releasing the source in a few days to allow the mod makers to fix everything up. If I had my way, I would have had them sit on the patch for a few days, send it to the known popular mods when it was ready, then release the whole lot of it all at once. </quote>

Why just the popular mods? All they had to do was put it on their FTP site and tell mods to update ... "You have a week to do this, because when the new patch ships, all of your mods are going to break. This way, everyone can be ready at the same time."

--

Warren Marshall - Professional Nuisance</QUOTE>

Fair enough, I never thought it through.  That scenario is good.  I hope you don't think I was trying to slight the less popular mods, I was just thinking of a way to keep the largest possible amount of players happy.

Overall though, can I take it that you agree with my position when merged with your suggestions?  Seems like a win-win situation to me.  <I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#15 by "Steve Bauman"
2000-09-23 22:51:14
steve@manic-pop-thrills.com http://www.manic-pop-thrills.com
<b>#13</b> "Warren Marshall" wrote...
<QUOTE>Why just the popular mods? All they had to do was put it on their FTP site and tell mods to update ... "You have a week to do this, because when the new patch ships, all of your mods are going to break. This way, everyone can be ready at the same time." </QUOTE>
Because as we all know, only the Mod makers would download the patch, and the FTP site wouldn't leak out all over the 'net a few minutes after being posted.

id was in a lose-lose situation either way. Release it to everyone and it breaks all Mods until the authors fix their Mods. Alternately they could release it to the Mod authors early and watch how it leaks out and still breaks all of the Mods.

---
"My life is a patio of fun."<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#16 by "G-Man"
2000-09-23 23:04:24
jonmars@shiftlock.org http://www.shiftlock.org
Id has never really liked the online community that formed around their games, or at least that is the impression I always got from them in numerous interviews etc,.

In fact I think that in a lot of ways they resent them, and for good reason. Quake players are whiny bitches who expect an extreme amount of support and demand that their decisions take precedence over the developers.

I remember reading an interview with John Carmack where he was asked if he ever felt any pressure to change something in his games because of the fan community. His reply in essence, was that he never listened to them anyway and just trucked along doing his own thing.

Additionally imagine how you would feel if as soon as you release your game, a bunch of fans take a look at your work and dismiss it saying "Okay lets get started making it exactly like Quake 1"

I agree with him.

 - [g.man]<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#17 by "BarneyQue"
2000-09-23 23:16:45
barneyque@hotmail.com
<b>#16</b> "G-Man" wrote...
<QUOTE>

Additionally imagine how you would feel if as soon as you release your game, a bunch of fans take a look at your work and dismiss it saying "Okay lets get started making it exactly like Quake 1"

I agree with him.

- [g.man]</QUOTE>

You make it sound like quake 1 was a bad thing. Where's the love?

Overall, I'd disagree that id has any problem with the community.  They often credit the community for the longevity of there titles.

<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#18 by "VeeSPIKE"
2000-09-23 23:21:48
appliedavoidanc@triton.net
<b>#16</b> "G-Man" wrote this stuff"
<QUOTE>Id has never really liked the online community that formed around their games, or at least that is the impression I always got from them in numerous interviews etc,. </QUOTE>

I think they have had problems with certain parts or people in the community, but  not as a whole. If it were not for the community, I would think that John Carmack would driving a Ford Taurus, and not a Ferrari.

On topic, didn't they do this same thing with Q2. I seem to remember mods having to play catchup with point releases, the Jailbreak mod coming to mind specifically. And I do not see the problem really, although they COULD have warned people. But I do not see them as being under any obligation to do so.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#19 by "AshRain"
2000-09-23 23:23:29
ash_rain@hotmail.com
The entire modscene for games like Q3A is keeling over anyway. People aren't satisfied anymore with little mods. They want big, bad an better. Or in other words total conversions. And TCs are a lot of work and without good people and/or support from the company who made the game you are not likely to succeed. It's almost like you are making a new game instead of a mod. It's not what it used to be.

I can understand why ID doesn't like the modscene. Perhaps they did once but not anymore. It's nothing but CTRL+C, CTRL+V with todays mods. Almost every mod currently done or in development is based on an existing mod/idea. Not to mention the fact that Q3A's fanbase is dwindeling. And I don't think that Team Arena will stop that.
#20 by "None-1a"
2000-09-24 00:10:01
none1a@home.com http://www.geocities.com/none-1a/
<b>#16</b> "G-Man" wrote...
<QUOTE>Id has never really liked the online community that formed around their games, or at least that is the impression I always got from them in numerous interviews etc,. </QUOTE>

While I agree with most of that (like the "lets make every thing just like Quake 1" stuff) but overall most of the interviews and other things show a respect for what's being done (I remember JC saying quakerally and the side scroller mods for Q1 where impressive).

Over all I'd say their sick of the same crap over and over again (bizzar notion after seeing q3), and really want to see the community return to the way it was with q1.  
--
None-1a.

O forget it.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#21 by "Steve Bauman"
2000-09-24 00:12:34
steve@manic-pop-thrills.com http://www.manic-pop-thrills.com
<b>#18</b> "VeeSPIKE" wrote...
<QUOTE>I think they have had problems with certain parts or people in the community, but not as a whole. If it were not for the community, I would think that John Carmack would driving a Ford Taurus, and not a Ferrari. </QUOTE>
Ooh, I'd have to disagree. The actual core communities are small compared to the overall sales; id was wildly successful because DOOM and Quake transcended the community and entered the mainstream. Obviously a vocal community can influence friends and such, but there are plenty of "strong community" games that don't sell and don't make anyone rich.

---
"My life is a patio of fun."<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#22 by "Lucky"
2000-09-24 00:21:12
lucky@planetduke.com
The Q3A mod scene is dead, long live the Q3A mod scene.

Isn't it sad that the more modern games lack the sheer thrill of games like Quake 1? Some mod developers obviously think so.

I won't bother downloading the Pro-Mode for Q3A; why the hell should I get a Q3A mod to make it play like Quakeworld when I have Quake 1 and a coverdisc with it's 'World counterpart somewhere?

id lost the DM touch after Quake 1. Just look at the mods trying to duplicate QW physics, weapons etc.

Quakeworld. Ahhh, them wuz the days when mutliplayer gaming wuz good.

Of course you can always go and play CS.
#23 by "RahvinTaka"
2000-09-24 00:36:39
donaldp@mad.scientist.com
<b>#17</b> "BarneyQue" wrote...
<QUOTE><B><A href="spy-internal:Load/156#16">#16</A></B> "G-Man" wrote...

<quote>

Additionally imagine how you would feel if as soon as you release your game, a bunch of fans take a look at your work and dismiss it saying "Okay lets get started making it exactly like Quake 1"

I agree with him.

- [g.man]</quote>

You make it sound like quake 1 was a bad thing. Where's the love?

Overall, I'd disagree that id has any problem with the community. They often credit the community for the longevity of there titles.</QUOTE>

I don't know - the impression I got was that they disliked segments of the community but didn't really try to cater for masses. For instance they try to make the "perfect" games. This idealistic approach while good doesn't work with fans. Most fans don't want a perfect game they want a "fun" game.

Both Q2 and Q3 I am aware that there was people who were disapointed with what the community did. I don't know of any local servers that run plain q2 dm - the community (at least round here) generally thought q2 dm sucked. Instead most run "Pure DM" or some other enhanced DM that increased fun levels by reducing managing you have to do (ie no longer running around to get a decent weapon at start - you start with a shottie and grens etc).

Compare this to UT - they basically went out and duplicated popular mods and then added their own branding. I am sure they would've got a lot a crap for it but I am glad they did it. UT is one of the funnest FPS games I played in ages. I remember spending hours sniping either as defensive or sneak-offense then switching to the redeemer and flying low over enemy base just to annoy the hell out of them :P.

Q3A may be a pure perfect DM but it aint no fun - UT may be a collection of bits glued together but it was fun. Many of q3a levels were far superior in game-flow to UT but no one plays them and the levels were tooo complex.



<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#24 by "RahvinTaka"
2000-09-24 00:38:08
donaldp@mad.scientist.com
<b>#20</b> "None-1a" wrote...
<QUOTE>Over all I'd say their sick of the same crap over and over again (bizzar notion after seeing q3), and really want to see the community return to the way it was with q1. </QUOTE>

too late - they lost their position as golden child and I can't see them regaining it unless they hire some one on who understands the community. Valve I see as the ones to watch - they look like they are forming their own empire with the way the are hiring on etc.
<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#25 by "Warren Marshall"
2000-09-24 01:05:10
warren@epicgames.com http://www.epicgames.com
<b>G-Man</b> (#16):
<QUOTE>In fact I think that in a lot of ways they resent them, and for good reason. Quake players are whiny bitches who expect an extreme amount of support and demand that their decisions take precedence over the developers.
</QUOTE>

This happens to major companies though.  Look at Epic and what we're (still!) going through with the S3TC thing ...

We chose not to do it.  Somebody hacked together something that works on a few cards/machines and now we're panned on message boards as lazy, not caring, arrogant, etc ...

How soon they forget all the freebies Epic has released ...  *sigh*

It's very much a case of, "Yeah, all that stuff in the past is great ... but what have you done for me TODAY?"  :)

<b>Lucky</b> (#22):
<QUOTE>Isn't it sad that the more modern games lack the sheer thrill of games like Quake 1? </QUOTE>

Hey, Quake1 was something new.  Nobody had seen anything like that before ... that kind of impact doesn't come along with every game.

<b>None-1a</b> (#24):
<QUOTE>Over all I'd say their sick of the same crap over and over again (bizzar notion after seeing q3), and really want to see the community return to the way it was with q1. </QUOTE>

Shit, I'd like that too!  I don't remember people being quite so bitter back then ... everyone was excited about what was going on, everything was new and fresh and fun ... sites like FatBabies didn't exist because people were focused on having a good time, not bitching ...  ahhh...

--

Warren Marshall - Professional Nuisance<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#26 by "Paul"
2000-09-24 01:35:04
paul@shrinkweb.com http://www.shrinkweb.com
Lucky said:
<quote>
Quakeworld. Ahhh, them wuz the days when mutliplayer gaming wuz good.
</quote>

I think it has a lot to do with the genre. It's been done over and over so many times. Everything past Doom has been essentially Doom with a bit more interactivity.

I'm starving for a new genre. Something that's not rpg, not sports, not fps, not strategy, etc.. but frankly I'm not sure there is another genre out there to do..

I propose all game developers start drinking electric kool aid instead of soda/coffee so the gaming public can enjoy something different.

- Paul
#27 by "Darkseid-[D!]"
2000-09-24 01:48:00
Darkseid-d@planetcrap.com http://www.pcinformer.co.uk
Hmm

anyone else played with LOKI opengl driver for UT


quite good, almost as smooth as D3D .. but vastly better looking



now if they could fix the backplane culling issue (can see thru walls if theyre not inside the viewposition limit) things would be hunkydory.


Ds<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#28 by "Andy"
2000-09-24 01:51:27
andy@planetcrap.com http://www.meejahor.com/
<b>#25</b>, Warren Marshall:
<QUOTE>
This happens to major companies though. Look at Epic and what we're (still!) going through with the S3TC thing ...

We chose not to do it. Somebody hacked together something that <b>works on a few cards/machines</b> and now we're panned on message boards as lazy, not caring, arrogant, etc ...
</QUOTE>
As someone who hasn't been following this situation closely and doesn't know much about it, I wonder how true that bold bit is...?

Seriously, no offence. I'm not calling you a liar. I just wonder if maybe you're downplaying how useful the hack is? The *one* viewpoint I've heard before is that it works very well, so maybe it's not as useless as you say? Or maybe that one viewpoint was wrong, I don't know.
#29 by "None-1a"
2000-09-24 01:54:51
none1a@home.com http://www.geocities.com/none-1a/
<b>#26</b> "Paul A. Bullman" wrote...
<QUOTE>I'm starving for a new genre. Something that's not rpg, not sports, not fps, not strategy, etc.. but frankly I'm not sure there is another genre out there to do.. </QUOTE>

Well there was that RTRPG idea for warcraft 3 (cross real time stratagy with roll playing just in case you some how forgot it), of course now it's back to just a RTS.

Personaly I think it's be great for more RPG elements to find there way into other genres a bit more, like sports games where you stats can go up and I get the choice of what stats to rase constatly.
--
None-1a.

O forget it.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#30 by "G-Man"
2000-09-24 02:07:02
jonmars@shiftlock.org http://www.shiftlock.org
<b>#26</b> "Paul A. Bullman" wrote...
<QUOTE>I'm starving for a new genre. Something that's not rpg, not sports, not fps, not strategy, etc.. but frankly I'm not sure there is another genre out there to do.. </QUOTE>
Well the genre du jour is the MMORPG. But I'm guessing that won't count for you as being something "new".

<QUOTE>I propose all game developers start drinking electric kool aid instead of soda/coffee so the gaming public can enjoy something different.</QUOTE>
Well then start paying attention to those wacky Japanese developers.

Anyone up for a game of Seaman (virtual fish sim/tamagotchi style game)? Or how about Kannon (manga love story/adventure/rpg type game)?

 - [g.man]<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#31 by "ramtin"
2000-09-24 02:32:10
http://Yo yo yo yo yo yo
Hmmmm... Great idea.... Hmmm.  How about a getting-laid simulation.  I think they made one for that for the nintendo 64 called harvest moon or something.  Basically, the purpose of the game is to get laid and you accomplish this goal by getting rich, good looking, and going to the bar and picking up chicks.

Ahhhh... Think of all the possiblities.  Think of the online community that would develop (wait... actually don't think of that it's scary).  Think of all the mods... We'll call it BootyShake 3: Arena.  I'm a genius. Carmack my number is 430-3223.  We'll have lunch!
#32 by "Darkseid-[D!]"
2000-09-24 02:36:15
Darkseid-d@planetcrap.com http://www.pcinformer.co.uk
Btw, thats not your number


*evil knowing laugh*



Ds<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#33 by "Paul"
2000-09-24 02:48:13
paul@shrinkweb.com http://www.shrinkweb.com
ramtin:

do you remember leisure suit larry?;-)

people could see that as the wolf3d of that genre.

- Paul
#34 by ""
2000-09-24 03:35:33
DarkSeid -

I've played with the OGL patch from Loki and on my machine it out performs D3D using a GeForce2.

It also beats out a Voodoo5 in D3D and Glide, but all the numbers are so close it doesn't matter.

Andy -

The Hack driver fails on anything but a Geforce/GeForce2 really.  Loki's is rumored to work on everything, but S3TC doesn't seem to work on the Voodoo5.

The problem also isn't what it works on, it's the "trouble" of installing it and getting it running.  You have to know to tell UT to find all drivers, then manually edit the ini file for the settings.  This I suspect is what they don't want to support.  Sure, everyone reading this forum can probably hack it, but the other million people who bought UT would just be pissed off it didn't work.
#35 by "None-1a"
2000-09-24 03:41:44
none1a@home.com http://www.geocities.com/none-1a/
<b>#34</b> "" wrote...
<QUOTE>Sure, everyone reading this forum can probably hack it, but the other million people who bought UT would just be pissed off it didn't work. </QUOTE>

Of course the people that could not figure out how to install the hack wouldn't care one bit about S3TC.
--
None-1a.

O forget it.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#36 by "Apache"
2000-09-24 04:54:38
apache@voodooextreme.com http://www.voodooextreme.com
from topic:
<quote>The mod community is arguably the lifeblood of an online game, without them, the game quickly fades from memory. Compare if you will, the community still playing Quake to that of say Blood2, quite a difference. Valve and Epic offered assitance in fixing problems, quite often _before_ the patch was released ( note in particular Valve's actions in delaying 1.010 to allow mod groups to create fixes). So, has id slipped even farther from touch with the gaming community, or is it unfair to judge them because they haven't taken onboard what their competitors are doing.</quote>

Looking at the <A HREF="http://www.gamespy.com/stats/mods.asp?id=22">GameSpy Quake III stats</a> it looks like the mods make up a very healthy portion of the games played online. The most popular -- Rocket Arena III (with 672 players atm) is headed up by crt who works at GameSpy and if I'm not mistaken is a 'subsidized' mod (getting commerical support). Then Weapons Factory Arena, Quake III Fortress, Orange Smoothie and Excessive have a couple hundred players each,  then looking at <A HREF="http://www.gamespy.com/stats/mods.asp?id=21">The Quake II stats</a>, the most popular played games are <b>all mods</b>, with Action Quake II the #1 most played game, etc. yada, yada, yada...

But, moving over to Unreal Tournament's mod scene, <A HREF="http://www.gamespy.com/stats/mods.asp?id=35">the numbers show</a> that the overwhelming amount of players are going for the official gametypes with the biggest mod -- Strike Force having around 100 players.

With stats like those, I think id has been pretty successful with its mod community.
#37 by "RahvinTaka"
2000-09-24 05:20:28
donaldp@mad.scientist.com
<b>#36</b> "Apache" wrote...
<QUOTE>
But, moving over to Unreal Tournament's mod scene, <A href="http://www.gamespy.com/stats/mods.asp?id=35">the numbers show</A> that the overwhelming amount of players are going for the official gametypes with the biggest mod -- Strike Force having around 100 players.

With stats like those, I think id has been pretty successful with its mod community.
</QUOTE>

well when you look at it like that - sure they have a successful mod community but have a look at Unreal now. I suspect it would virtually nil - if it even registers on the chart. Unreal --> UT is a huge increase. Almost everyone started coding/modding/whatever in quake or quake style games and thus it is not surprising that there is still more people with quake style mods running. Now factor in that UT sold a lot more to less "hardcore" orientated players who weren't likely to download mods anyway. Factor in the PITA that UT servers are to setup compared to Q3A and thus reluctance of admins to try new stuff out and you probably have your reason why you get those stats.

Don't get me wrong I am an id-fanboy at heart and many of the technologies are technically superioir (no not going to argue about this either) but they don't do it with style. Or more precisly their style is old hat and very un-user friendly. I can not see this changing in long run especially with their next game aiming for a genre that may not suit this climate. But hey they will still be the masters and they still get globs of cash doing what they want anyways - so I guess it aint matter :P
<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#38 by "crt"
2000-09-24 05:39:04
wrightd@gamespy.com
RA3 is not subsidized by id or GameSpy. I work on it on my own time.

Back to the subject at hand.. I'm not really unhappy at id for breaking mods - some times that needs to happen for progress. Now I do think it could have been handled a bit better - by either releasing the source to mod authors earlier (as Valve and Epic do), or clearly labeling this release a beta and making sure everyone knew it would break mods, but I'm sure id will do it better next time.

Honestly I think the much bigger story here is the physics and balance changes 10 months after the game was released. Although I don't personally care a lot (I don't play enough really), I know a lot of experienced players that are really unhappy about the changes - they invalidate a lot of the level strategies that have been built up over that time. Many of the changes were indeed "bug fixes": the blast through walls, mega-health timing, etc... but those "bugs" became key strategies - just like Rocket Jumping / Wall Running in Q1 and Strafe Jumping in Q2.

FYI - The first release of RA3 has the "new" 1.25 physics (inadvertantly) - however after I got several hundred e-mails complaining about it I managed to get the DLL to emulate 1.17 QVM physics - I believe this is what id is going to do for 1.2(6?), but apparently they aren't planning on changing the other "fixes" like rocket damage through walls.
#39 by ""
2000-09-24 05:42:00
Apache -

2 very big problems with your numbers.  First, GameSpy's page only lists a few selected mods and NO mutators.  Many, many servers run some sort of mutator.

But I must say, that most server admins for UT shy away from mods or anything that causes even the slightest download time.
#40 by "[MC]Vrokolos"
2000-09-24 06:16:57
vrokolos@x-stream.co.uk http://www.marinecore.co.uk
<b>Apache</b> (#36):
<QUOTE>from topic:

<quote>
But, moving over to Unreal Tournament's mod scene, <A href="http://www.gamespy.com/stats/mods.asp?id=35">the numbers show</A> that the overwhelming amount of players are going for the official gametypes with the biggest mod -- Strike Force having around 100 players.

With stats like those, I think id has been pretty successful with its mod community.
</QUOTE>
</quote>

I'm playing UT at least 5 hours per day since it got out. I must say I never tried playing any mod cause I don't have time for them. If you play UT CTF then everything else is just meaningless. Sure I want to try those but downloading 140mb just for testing (how else can I test it?) a mod is much more boring than downloading 10 p0rn movies.

Although the mods size is huge that isn't the reason I don't play them. I don't even play assault dm LMS or even custom maps. Why should I? What makes those mods more interesting than all these UT-official ones?

AND! UT is alot different than Q3A. Don't try to compare the two companys on their mod-community. UT has a lot of in-built game types that's enough to suck hours of any players life. And that's why those stats are so low on UT mods.
#41 by "Apache"
2000-09-24 06:38:56
apache@voodooextreme.com http://www.voodooextreme.com
Rahvin said:
<quote>...well when you look at it like that - sure they have a successful mod community but have a look at Unreal now. I suspect it would virtually nil - if it even registers on the chart...</quote>

heh, actually Unreal is still on the top ten, lol. (like 150 players atm)

crt said:
<quote>Honestly I think the much bigger story here is the physics and balance changes 10 months after the game was released. Although I don't personally care a lot (I don't play enough really), I know a lot of experienced players that are really unhappy about the changes - they invalidate a lot of the level strategies that have been built up over that time. Many of the changes were indeed "bug fixes": the blast through walls, mega-health timing, etc... but those "bugs" became key strategies - just like Rocket Jumping / Wall Running in Q1 and Strafe Jumping in Q2. </quote>

I believe id is going to revert back to the 'old' physics if I am not mistaken. About those strategies, like the megahealth timing; isn't that "camping"? I hate that...

#39 said:
<quote>2 very big problems with your numbers. First, GameSpy's page only lists a few selected mods and NO mutators. Many, many servers run some sort of mutator.

But I must say, that most server admins for UT shy away from mods or anything that causes even the slightest download time. </quote>

That is something you should report to gamespy so they can fix it, if that is a valid problem.

I used to run a couple UT servers back when I had a T1 connection, and if you left on the allow downloads, it KILLED it for everyone. I ran a CTF Relic server and assault relic server. Lots of fun :)

[MC]Vrokolos said:
<quote>I'm playing UT at least 5 hours per day since it got out. I must say I never tried playing any mod cause I don't have time for them. If you play UT CTF then everything else is just meaningless. Sure I want to try those but downloading 140mb just for testing (how else can I test it?) a mod is much more boring than downloading 10 p0rn movies. </quote>

maybe UT's out-of-box gametypes are so good that no mods can compete with them? Who knows...

:)
#42 by ""
2000-09-24 06:38:58
#40 <quote>AND! UT is alot different than Q3A. Don't try to compare the two companys on their mod-community. UT has a lot of in-built game types that's enough to suck hours of any players life. And that's why those stats are so low on UT mods.</quote>

Q3A got 4 game types UT got 5? (forgot) and also 140 MB! comon most mods are like 30-50 MB's which can be download while watching TV or something :)

Also to your <quote>Why should I? What makes those mods more interesting than all these UT-official ones?</quote>, Well mod makers have free hands and don't have a deadline and since there are so many mod makers some of them are gonna get lucky making something that rocks, like QTF, Rocket Arena and Counter Strike.

and yes I know most MODs suck, but there are some that owns
#43 by ""
2000-09-24 07:24:54
Who cares if GameSpy gets it right.. I certainly don't.  I'm a UT player and the internal browser is all that's needed.

And with download redirection, it's not a problem anymore.
#44 by "DevPac2"
2000-09-24 10:13:57
devpac2@hotmail.com
UT OpenGL : Tried it and i got about 20fps less and i didn't think the picture quality was as good. I was pretty happy with the D3D for UT tho'

I think that those people who said that id could have handled this better are correct. If theyed followed the Valve route and released the SDK to the major mod developers beforehand then the upgrade problems could have been avoided.

I don't play Q3 (still a HPW) so i can't comment on the gameplay changes but are there any competitions that use the so called Pro-Mode ?

Dev
#45 by "My Cock In Your ARSE"
2000-09-24 11:19:20
sheriffbakanay@hotmail.com http://Fuck off, dumb cunts
Ramtin you little cocksucker, you're back I see.
#46 by "PiRaMidA"
2000-09-24 11:22:40
piramida@agsm.net http://www.agsm.net
Post <b>#44</b> by DevPac2:
<QUOTE><i>
I don't play Q3 (still a HPW) so i can't comment on the gameplay changes but are there any competitions that use the so called Pro-Mode ?
</i></QUOTE>

As soon as it will be final (still beta now), I'm sure many competitions would be using Pro-mod. It is being developed by quite a bunch of well known pro gamers, and it is not a simple "hack it to be like q1" but more of "make q3a what it should have been - ultimate DM arena". I agree with almost all of their changes, and while it may have a negative effect of splitting the scene in two parts (pro and std), it still is a step forward in competitive gaming, imo.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#47 by "Warren Marshall"
2000-09-24 13:06:09
warren@epicgames.com http://www.epicgames.com
<b>Andy</b> (#28):
<QUOTE>As someone who hasn't been following this situation closely and doesn't know much about it, I wonder how true that bold bit is...?

Seriously, no offence. I'm not calling you a liar. I just wonder if maybe you're downplaying how useful the hack is? The *one* viewpoint I've heard before is that it works very well, so maybe it's not as useless as you say? Or maybe that one viewpoint was wrong, I don't know.
</QUOTE>

Oh it's certainly not useless.  The fact that the guy got it to work, that's great!  That comment was derived from what I've been reading on messageboards.  Primarily, the GT messageboards for UT ... It works for some people, but there are lots of people who can't get it to work.  I might be wrong, but I know what I saw.  :P

If it worked great on everyone's machines, and was 100% reliable, that would be wonderful.  Then we could just get it from him, paste it into the next patch and be done with it.  :)

But that's what Epic doesn't have time for right now.  Taking someone's 4-hour hack and turning it into a 100% working, shippable feature.

--

Warren Marshall - Professional Nuisance<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#48 by "Lucky"
2000-09-24 14:30:40
lucky@planetduke.com
Numba 43 said:
Who cares if GameSpy gets it right.. I certainly don't. I'm a UT player and the internal browser is all that's needed.


Uhh I'm sure that UT's internal browser is using GameSpy tech. Then again I don't play UT online much; some wacky mutators with bots is about as much fun as you can get with UT.
#49 by "Lucky"
2000-09-24 14:40:54
lucky@planetduke.com
UT's problem online-wise is that all the mods work with bots (to at least some degree).

But Q3A's don't comply with bots. UT perhaps has a less mutiplayer based community because people download a mod, play with bots, that's it. You can go to PlanetUnreal, get a few mods from some of the hosted sites, and then bugger offline again and enjoy without fear of losing to a real person. :)

Q3A, you HAVE to go online to play the best mods. RA3 for example.
#50 by "Darren Coleman"
2000-09-24 15:08:48
durzel@barrysworld.com
<quote>It is being developed by quite a bunch of well known pro gamers, and it is not a simple "hack it to be like q1" but more of "make q3a what it should have been - ultimate DM arena".</quote>

Is that not the crux of the problem though?  Do you not see it as the slightest bit arrogant that a group of gamers turn around and basically say to id software: "Hey guys, nice graphics but the physics sucks - we're gonna make it like QW was because, as everyone knows, QW r00ls!".

I personally believe a lot of the discontent and relative apathy towards Q3A stems from the fact that the community <b>is</b> split over things like "pro-mode", etc.  I can think of no other game where after its release the gaming community <i>decided</i> that it's physics were "not up to professional standards" and set about making fundamental changes such as those featured in "pro mode".

Is it such a hardship to actually learn the nuances and tricks of a <i>completely different physics engine</i>? ..or are the "pro" Q3A players too scared of the challenge?
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