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LithBits
August 30th 2000, 05:01 CEST by andy

Those lovely boys over at VoodooExtreme hosted a chat with some of the guys from Monolith tonight, with Jason Hall fielding most of the questions and Dan Miller picking up the rest. Although I only went along to see how it played out, I ended up putting some questions to Jason...



Why does Sanity support user-created multiplayer maps if there isn't going to be an editor?

Sanity doesn't support user created multiplayer maps. Where did you get that information. It is in error and needs to be adjusted.

Let me correct that...

Sanity CAN support user maps, but that would require us to release the tools... doing so would compromise the game's security somewhat, and I don't know if we/Fox are willing to do that just yet.

We are NOT currently planning on releasing the tools.


Because it was a moderated chat, I wasn't able to answer his question, so I'll answer it here. It's in the documentation. And as you can see from the screenshot on the right, the game also supports user-created single player levels. Here's the quote about multiplayer maps:

You may find custom multiplayer maps that did not ship with Sanity. To play with these levels, which will have a ".dat" extension on the filename, you must place them in a "sanity\worlds\multi" folder in your Sanity game directory. [Further explanation of how to install the levels.]

Once the maps are placed correctly you will be able to host and join games with them as you would with the standard retail maps.


Back to the questions now...

When you decided to make another mech game, why did you decide against making it a sequel to Shogo?

The mech game we are currently making is decidedly different from Shogo. That is why. It has a somewhat different target audience.

Some of the talents not included in Sanity are being made available exclusively through retailers as purchase incentives. Will there ever be any way for everyone to (legitimately) get hold of these talents?

Yes. At some point we plan on making all those talents available on our website after the promotion ends.

But that will be a while from now.

Do you mean that the talents will be available for free download? Or will you be selling them?

The VAST majority of Sanity talents will be up for free download at some point. That is the primary goal/focus for the talents' proliferation.

So there you go, take it for what it's worth. Good news about the Sanity talents, if you ask me. Monolith has been taking a lot of stick from people who think they're planning to sell talents that have been missed out of the game, or however you want to phrase it, but at least now we've been told that most of them will be free. Hmm... most of them? I wonder what the others will be, and how much they'll cost...

C O M M E N T S
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#1 by "Dethstryk"
2000-08-30 05:04:06
dethstryk@damagegaming.com http://www.damagegaming.com/
Here's your time to shine, Lith fanboy. You know who I'm talking about.


--
Dethstryk
Damage Gaming
#2 by "crash"
2000-08-30 05:04:59
crash@planetcrap.com http://www.planetcrap.com
woohoo! not first!

:-p<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#3 by "Warmonger [AI]"
2000-08-30 05:07:32
warmonger87@hotmail.com
YEAH<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#4 by "Baytor"
2000-08-30 05:08:53
baytor@yahoo.com http://www.geocities.com/baytor
Forth!!!!

I... AM BAYTOR!!!!<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#5 by "Dethstryk"
2000-08-30 05:09:06
dethstryk@damagegaming.com http://www.damagegaming.com/
What are we supposed to be talking about, anyway? ;)


--
Dethstryk
Damage Gaming
#6 by "Warmonger [AI]"
2000-08-30 05:09:51
warmonger87@hotmail.com
Yo Andy, were all of those your questions? <I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#7 by "Morn"
2000-08-30 05:13:15
morn@planetcrap.com http://www.planetcrap.com
<quote>And as you can see from the screenshot on the right, the game also supports user-created single player levels.</quote>

"Custom" does not necessarily mean "user-created".

- Morn
<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#8 by "err head"
2000-08-30 05:13:41
err_head@yahoo.com
<quote>You may find custom multiplayer maps that did not ship with Sanity. </quote>

how does that in anyway imply user-created maps?  Sounds to me like you might get some maps on a cd in your captain crunch, or an a pc gamer cd.  Doesn't say anything like<i> you may create custom multiplayer maps</i>

<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#9 by "crash"
2000-08-30 05:14:25
crash@planetcrap.com http://www.planetcrap.com
<i>#include "disclaimer.h"</i>

okay, on-topic this time. i'm curious why a game would be built to support user-made maps but that no tools would be provided. the only thing i can think of is that they're (monolith/fox/whoever dev'd the game/etal) hoping that folks reverse-engineer the current map/.dat/whatever files and make their own editors.

but then that's at cross-purposes to the stated goal of not compromising the game's security--by basically inviting people to pull your shit apart tryin to figure out how it works so they can use functionality that's apparently been built into the game. once they figure out how it works, we get head-shot CS mods. so to speak.

so... are there going to be like map packs or something, sold along with the bonus talents? or sold separately? or what?

i'm a tad confused now. help?<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#10 by "Baytor"
2000-08-30 05:14:52
baytor@yahoo.com http://www.geocities.com/baytor
<b>#5</b> The Pagan God of Lust, "Dethstryk" wrote:  
<QUOTE>What are we supposed to be talking about, anyway? ;)
</QUOTE>

I don't have a clue.  I figure we should all divide up in teams. The "Lith Rocks" doodz over there by Warmonger and the "Lith Sux" doodz over by Barcode Boy.

I... AM BAYTOR!!!!<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#11 by "Dethstryk"
2000-08-30 05:14:58
dethstryk@damagegaming.com http://www.damagegaming.com/
<b>Morn wrote in post #7:</b>
<quote>"Custom" does not necessarily mean "user-created".</quote>
Oh, hell. That brings up a whole can of worms at this place.

"<i>But</i>.. what's the <i>meaning</i> of 'custom' and 'user-created'?"


--
Dethstryk
Damage Gaming
#12 by "crash"
2000-08-30 05:18:04
crash@planetcrap.com http://www.planetcrap.com
<i>#include</i>

Morn (#7):
<i>"Custom" does not necessarily mean "user-created".</i>

in this context, actually, i think they're synonymous. reason: anything coming from the company is official and thus non-custom. i.e. when you d/l a point release from id, are those custom maps inside, or are they just new maps?

:)<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#13 by "Vengeance"
2000-08-30 05:19:39
rhiggi@home.com
<b>#10</b> "Baytor" took time out from downloading porn to write ...
<QUOTE><B><A href="spy-internal:Load/144#5">#5</A></B> The Pagan God of Lust, "Dethstryk" wrote:

<quote>What are we supposed to be talking about, anyway? ;)
</quote>

I don't have a clue. I figure we should all divide up in teams. The "Lith Rocks" doodz over there by Warmonger and the "Lith Sux" doodz over by Barcode Boy.

I... AM BAYTOR!!!!</QUOTE>

What about those of us in the middle who like cool games whoever makes them but don't agree with the eating of small children?

:-)

V<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#14 by "Warmonger [AI]"
2000-08-30 05:19:44
warmonger87@hotmail.com
Dood, Baytor, you should log on to IRC more often. I get lonely in there sometimes.

<b>#9</b> "crash" wrote...
<QUOTE>okay, on-topic this time. i'm curious why a game would be built to support user-made maps but that no tools would be provided. the only thing i can think of is that they're (monolith/fox/whoever dev'd the game/etal) hoping that folks reverse-engineer the current map/.dat/whatever files and make their own editors. </QUOTE>

In the chat, Jace said that it was *possible* that the editor could be released. Also, the Kiss map editor might, I emphasize, MIGHT be able to create maps for Sanity
<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#15 by "Baytor"
2000-08-30 05:20:28
baytor@yahoo.com http://www.geocities.com/baytor
<b>#11</b> The Pagan God of Lust, "Dethstryk" wrote:  
<QUOTE>"<I>But</I>.. what's the <I>meaning</I> of 'custom' and 'user-created'?"
</QUOTE>

Scratches head to remember Lucas Arts' Outlaw.

It is possible for Monolith to release custom maps, and this would be where you would load up the maps.  Outlaws had a similar feature, although it worked with user-made maps as well, but if you downloaded "Fistful of Missions" addon, then it showed up in a similiar place.

I... AM BAYTOR!!!!<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#16 by "Baytor"
2000-08-30 05:22:11
baytor@yahoo.com http://www.geocities.com/baytor
<b>#13</b> The Pagan God of Lust, "Vengeance" wrote:  
<QUOTE>What about those of us in the middle who like cool games whoever makes them but don't agree with the eating of small children?
</QUOTE>

How about "those in favor of eating small children" on one side, "those in favor of eating Andy" on the other.  :)

I... AM BAYTOR!!!!<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#17 by "err head"
2000-08-30 05:22:48
err_head@yahoo.com
<b>#12</b> "crash" wrote...
<QUOTE>
in this context, actually, i think they're synonymous. reason: anything coming from the company is official and thus non-custom. i.e. when you d/l a point release from id, are those custom maps inside, or are they just new maps?
:)</QUOTE>

but there is a vast universe of !monolith and !user entities that could produce said custom levels, so custom level is not synonymous with user created level


 <I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#18 by "Warmonger [AI]"
2000-08-30 05:27:22
warmonger87@hotmail.com
Why don't you reply to me? :(<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#19 by "Baytor"
2000-08-30 05:28:46
baytor@yahoo.com http://www.geocities.com/baytor
<b>#18</b> The Pagan God of Lust, "Warmonger [AI]" wrote:  
<QUOTE>Why don't you reply to me? :(</QUOTE>

Happy now?

I... AM BAYTOR!!!!<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#20 by "^mortis^"
2000-08-30 05:29:06
mortis@goddamnindependent.com http://www./goddamnindependent.com
"user-made maps" was not mentioned in either the quoted multiplayer map statement or by jason hall. all i see is "CUSTOM LEVEL" in the console, and "multiplayer maps that did not ship with Sanity" in the quoted portion.

i mean, it's okay to read something into this if you're into that sort of thing. in my opinion, this reads to mean either maps later provided by Monolith as downloads, or by FOX as a Pizza Hut Promotional CD or something...

^M^
#21 by "Andy"
2000-08-30 05:32:56
andy@planetcrap.com http://www.meejahor.com/
<b>#6</b>, Warmonger [AI]:
<QUOTE>
Yo Andy, were all of those your questions?
</QUOTE>
Yes.


<b>Custom/user-created:</b> I understand what people are saying, but I think "custom level" means user-created. Remember that "custom" is just short for "customised". User-created levels have come to be known as custom levels because when someone creates an add-on level they're customising the game.
#22 by "crash"
2000-08-30 05:33:26
crash@planetcrap.com http://www.planetcrap.com
err head (#17):
<i>but there is a vast universe of !monolith and !user entities that could produce said custom levels, so custom level is not synonymous with user created level</i>

one doesn't necessarily preclude the other, i agree. hm. re-reading the intro again, it's apples and oranges. (god it's late. why am i still at work? oh, yeah... doin six jobs. never mind.) Jason says it doesn't support user-created <b>multiplayer</b> maps, and it doesn't. Andy's shot and example is from the SP screen. (granted, it might have the same slot on the multi screen, but as i don't have it installed, i can't check.)

the quote from the docs says "custom multi maps" with no info as to origin. judging from Jason's response and the docs, i would gather the following:

* the game supports user-created maps, in single player, but Monolith/Fox ("we") don't supply tools to end-users.

* the game supports custom, non-user-created maps, in single player, and the tools must be used to do so. no clue who can use these outside M/F; best guess is none, and on a case-by-case for future.

* the game does support custom, non-user-created maps, in multiplayer, and the tools must be used to do so. ditto the above on tool availability.

okay. that makes sense. now, the big question: how much different is the map format from single to multi, and how long will it take people to figure out how to do it? :)<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#23 by "Warmonger [AI]"
2000-08-30 05:36:54
warmonger87@hotmail.com
<b>#22</b> "crash" wrote...
<QUOTE>
okay. that makes sense. now, the big question: how much different is the map format from single to multi, and how long will it take people to figure out how to do it? :)</QUOTE>

The difference between SP and MP maps in lithtech is the difference between 1 and 0. Literally. The WorldProperties object in Shogo defined whether the level is SP or MP. Simple as that.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#24 by "None-1a"
2000-08-30 05:45:37
none1a@home.com http://www.geocities.com/none-1a/
<b>#22</b> "crash" wrote...
<QUOTE>okay. that makes sense. now, the big question: how much different is the map format from single to multi, and how long will it take people to figure out how to do it? :)</QUOTE>

Not long at all, even with changes to the worldproperties. The sounds of the story line (based on the demo) make an addon seam likly at some point (if sales are well), so the ability to do it must be there. Also remember he did say "we/Fox are willing to do that just yet". And just before that he did say it can support user created maps (leading to me to belive a single player map would not be out of the question, but I could be reading to much into it).

O and crash shouldn't there be some kind of function at the bottom of your post calling some function in disclamer.h? Not really meaning to be nitpicky about that (I know you've got enough of that over this).

--
None-1a.

O forget it.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#25 by "Vengeance"
2000-08-30 05:47:33
rhiggi@home.com
<b>#16</b> "Baytor" took time out from downloading p0rn to write ...
<QUOTE><B><A href="spy-internal:Load/144#13">#13</A></B> The Pagan God of Lust, "Vengeance" wrote:

<quote>What about those of us in the middle who like cool games whoever makes them but don't agree with the eating of small children?
</quote>

How about "those in favor of eating small children" on one side, "those in favor of eating Andy" on the other. :)

I... AM BAYTOR!!!!</QUOTE>

LOL.  

<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#26 by "Warmonger [AI]"
2000-08-30 05:48:08
warmonger87@hotmail.com
Andy, when are you gonna have that Sanity review up? I'm waiting to see what you think (though I'll get it no matter what :D).<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#27 by "crash"
2000-08-30 05:52:10
crash@planetcrap.com http://www.planetcrap.com
None-1a:
<i>O and crash shouldn't there be some kind of function at the bottom of your post calling some function in disclamer.h? Not really meaning to be nitpicky about that (I know you've got enough of that over this).</i>

i thought the quotes implied... something. okay, jesus, i'm fucking clueless when it comes to c++. i'll just stop. :)

or, you know, figure out the bottom/sig part of crapspy.

naah.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#28 by "Jason Hall"
2000-08-30 05:56:40
Hall@lith.com http://www.lith.com
Crash is pretty much correct with his post #22 - From a technical standpoint:

Sanity can support user made maps (if users have the tools and knew how to make maps).

Sanity can support extra maps from FOX/Monolith as well.

A map is a map so to speak.

The "custom level" that is pictured above is for additional single player maps/episodes to be launched from.

At this current time, those maps would need to come from Monolith because we have not released the Sanity tools to the public.

Multiplayer can also support additional maps. Again, these too would have to come from Monolith.

It is not currently planned for the Sanity tools to be released. This decision could be re-evalutaed in the future if the demand/sales/community is strong enough to warrant the additional work and support that would be required to release the fairly complex Sanity toolset.

We are withholding the tools because for the time being we would like to reduce the amount of hax0ring on Sanity and let people experience the full game as it was originally intended. The tools do provide quite a bit of insight as to how to really "crack open" Sanity and mess around with it. :)

Jace
#29 by "Warmonger [AI]"
2000-08-30 06:00:23
warmonger87@hotmail.com
You know, Jason, we don't need to have ALL of the tools. Lithrez plus DEdit would be more than enough for most things. ModelEdit and the source were the two biggest cheating problems, so I don't see what the problem with the hax0rs would be. Alhtough, I know it must be hard to support the mod community, cause I've looked at ShogoObjects.doc, and that must have taken a DAMN long time to write.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#30 by "Andy"
2000-08-30 06:02:38
andy@planetcrap.com http://www.meejahor.com/
<b>#28</b>, Jason Hall:
<QUOTE>
Crash is pretty much correct with his post <A href="spy-internal:Load/144#22">#22</A> - From a technical standpoint:
</QUOTE>
Heh, this is the second time I've noticed this recently -- I post something in the topic, person A disagrees, person B agrees, and someone from the company in question then turns up and says that person B is right.

<b><i>Why not say that *I'M* right?!</i></b>

Doesn't posting the topic give me first dibs on being right?!

Honestly, it's enough to make a guy paranoid! ;-)
#31 by "crash"
2000-08-30 06:03:47
crash@planetcrap.com http://www.planetcrap.com
Jason (#28):
<i>The tools do provide quite a bit of insight as to how to really "crack open" Sanity and mess around with it. :)</i>

so does a hex editor, a knowledge of lithtech, and a little patience and dedication. but i bet you already knew that. :)<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#32 by "Jason Hall"
2000-08-30 06:05:11
Hall@lith.com http://www.lith.com
Andy, I will admit that the question you raised was very valid to ask!

Jace
#33 by "Dragon"
2000-08-30 06:12:30
dragon@planetshogo.com
#include disclaimer.h

Invincibility_From_Developers_Wrath();
Invincibility_From_Halls_wrestling_moves();
Invincibility_From_spelling_mistakes();

I hope we don't have this level of secrecy for Nolf. Some of us are planning on porting Shogo over to the Nolf engine.

We'll do it legally so that no one busts through a wall and lays the beat down on those programmers that want wide open spaces.

But still if someone figures out how to crack Sanity, will Lith be given the go ahead to fix it so that the cheaters have to go back to hacking Solitaire? And will the release version have certain "debug" commands taken out?

End_Spelling_Mistake_invincibility();
End_Hall_Invincibility();
End_Developers_Invincibility();

Activate_Sleep_Mode();

/\Dragon the programmer
/\Coding with Shogo for more than a month now.
#34 by "Morn"
2000-08-30 06:39:37
morn@planetcrap.com http://www.planetcrap.com
<b>#12</b> "crash" wrote...
<QUOTE>in this context, actually, i think they're synonymous. reason: anything coming from the company is official and thus non-custom. i.e. when you d/l a point release from id, are those custom maps inside, or are they just new maps?
</QUOTE>

Maybe Monolith's partners will be releasing "official" (yet "custom") maps?

- Morn
<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#35 by "Ian"
2000-08-30 07:31:17
Andy: You never really answered the question of whether user-made maps would be available. You simply said that if custom maps were created, there is an option to use them. Crash stated that all custom maps would come from Monolith, while you left that open to debate. The way I percieved things, you never really answered the question at all, which I can't really blame you for, as you didn't have all the information. Crash's post was just conjecture that happened to be correct.

So yes, you are paranoid. However, I don't blame you, considering the rampant hostility towards you coming from most PC regulars. <I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#36 by "DanM[Lith]"
2000-08-30 07:34:44
So is it safe to say that PlanetCrap is now a Monolith/LithTech Fansite? From the title post "LithBits" it sounds like you're gonna be covering new information from us quite regularly. If so, welcome aboard! ;)

It's all in fun, really :)

Andy, thank you for your patience in the chat tonite, I tried to post all of your questions. I think I might have missed one, but am not sure.

Dan Miller
Monolith Productions
#37 by "Baytor"
2000-08-30 07:40:00
baytor@yahoo.com http://www.geocities.com/baytor
<b>#36</b> The Pagan God of Lust, "DanM[Lith]" wrote:  
<QUOTE>So is it safe to say that PlanetCrap is now a Monolith/LithTech Fansite? From the title post "LithBits" it sounds like you're gonna be covering new information from us quite regularly. If so, welcome aboard! ;)
</QUOTE>

It is a bit weird, not since the release of Shogo has there been a Lith love-fest like this.

And Andy's been kicking sand in the face of Blizzard and 3DRealms at the same time.  What sort of Bizarro world is this? :)

I... AM BAYTOR!!!!<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#38 by "Daren Walz"
2000-08-30 08:40:04
walzx002@maroon.tc.umn.edu
/me falls to his knees on the beach

You Blew it up! Damn you! Damn you all to hell!

/me stops

5 points if you get how this is in context

-Daren

*flush*<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#39 by "Gestalt"
2000-08-30 12:30:47
john@eurogamer.net http://www.eurogamer.net
"/me falls to his knees on the beach"

Damn, I was just watching that last night as well. Great movie, and the DVD box set rules. ;)
#40 by "Mankovic"
2000-08-30 13:43:04
mankovic@jellico.net http://
and now he's head of the NRA.......:/

granted it took him the entire movie to get a clue...;-)
#41 by "Apache"
2000-08-30 14:21:27
apache@voodooextreme.com http://www.voodooextreme.com
it was a good chat, lots of solid new info. andy sent me the log (no, not that kind of log) of the event and I'm in the process of editing it now. will post in a couple hours.
#42 by "Apache"
2000-08-30 14:37:40
apache@voodooextreme.com http://www.voodooextreme.com
btw... (from the log)

*** Angela15SWF is now known as WiederVERK

Does Charlie hang out in IRC channels and pose as a 15 year old single white female? Scary...
#43 by "G-Man"
2000-08-30 16:54:58
jonmars@shiftlock.org http://www.shiftlock.org
<b>#42</b> "Apache" wrote...
<QUOTE>Does Charlie hang out in IRC channels and pose as a 15 year old single white female? Scary... </QUOTE>
I thought he just picked up 15 year old girls? You've scooped Incite!

 - [g.man]<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#44 by "Apache"
2000-08-30 17:00:00
apache@voodooextreme.com http://www.voodooextreme.com
The <A HREF="http://www.voodooextreme.com/article.taf?articleID=91">Edited Hot man chat w/ Jace transcript</a> is now online...
#45 by "Warmonger [AI]"
2000-08-30 19:36:58
warmonger87@hotmail.com
Damn it, people! Why can't you ever argue with my posts? I'm bored. I want barcode boy back.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#46 by "IlIIllllI1"
2000-08-30 19:47:23
#45

your wish is my command!!!!!!!!1

all hail john "god" carmack!!!!!!!!!!11
#47 by "Portax"
2000-08-30 19:50:30
portax@telefragged.com http://www.craftofwar.com/
<b>Apache</b> (#44):
<QUOTE>The <A href="http://www.voodooextreme.com/article.taf?articleID=91">Edited Hot man chat w/ Jace transcript</A> is now online... </QUOTE>

"<apache%gt; <apache%gt; When can we expect the official Mecha Game PR/concept_art/shots to be unleashed upon the media?"

I don't know why, but that just made me laugh :).<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#48 by "Portax"
2000-08-30 19:51:06
portax@telefragged.com http://www.craftofwar.com/
Damn my HTML skills, you know what I mean with the "%gt;".<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#49 by "Warmonger [AI]"
2000-08-30 19:54:27
warmonger87@hotmail.com
Yes, I rule! Barcode is back! Time to have some fun!<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#50 by "Apache"
2000-08-30 20:09:28
apache@voodooextreme.com http://www.voodooextreme.com
#47: hah, I should've kept the question by morn in the transcript ;)
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Email Links: [email=some@email.com]Email me[/email], [email]some@email.com[/email]
Simple formatting: Quoted text: [quote]Yadda yadda[/quote]
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