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All-Female Gaming Events
August 11th 2000, 02:27 CEST by Bobbi

The announcement of an All Female Tournament at the upcoming Frag 4, and a recent article on PlanetQuake have stirred up some old issues that have always been the source of many arguments in our community. That being, of course, women, gaming, and all-female events.



What follows is a statement written by Katherine Anna Kang, who founded and ran (all by herself) the first All Female Quake Tournament so many years ago. This statement was written in response to the uproar that is generated every year an event like this is announced.

What is it about the issue of women in gaming, FPS's in particular, that draws so much attention and criticism? I find the frenzied state that some people get when discussing the issue a bit strange; it is, after all, only a game. isn't it?

I, for one, support All Female gaming events and I'll tell you why.

I want more women involved. I want more wives, girlfriends, mothers, etc. to have a chance to get drawn to these games - to see that it's only a game and that it can be incredibly fun. I want to see my male friends spending some quality time with their girlfriends or wives fragging the competition online then meeting up for dinner to discuss the victories of Saturday evening's CTF game.

It's fun when both men and women get involved in these games, but the fact of the matter is, not a lot of women are as involved with FPS's as they are with other genres. If people are trying to change that, let them!

It's not "our" jobs to get more women involved but when someone makes it "their" job to put together an event to draw more women into this gaming genre, I LIKE it!

Nearly 4 years ago, I found myself enjoying games that were considered games made for guys. My friends, most of them males, would tell me that I was probably the only girl who really enjoyed games like DOOM or Quake. I couldn't believe that so I put together an all female Quake tournament. Over 1000 women registered and it was fun! Unfortunately, to my surprise, what had begun as a fun event trying to see how many women would register to play became somewhat of a political scene. The focus of the event was FUN but somewhere along the path, some people lost that focus. There were attacks and criticisms about any desire to put an all female tournament together - the reasons behind the formation of the tournament didn't matter, what mattered to the critics was that it was segregation and therefore wrong.

This type of logic doesn't work.

Rather than intent, everything gets clumped into it's "BAD" if you do anything that involves the word. "SEGREGATION". So when does segregation become bad? Is it bad to have an office tournament? Or does it become bad when the office tournament is only for the programming staff? Are events that are exclusively for children bad because they are pandering to kids and not adults? Are events for senior citizens wrong and should be abolished because they don't cater to every other age group?

Are rocketry clubs for California residents wrong?
Is offering ladies night at a club wrong?
Are separate bathrooms wrong?

Perhaps we should look into the evil segregation of fruits and vegetables at our local grocery stores!

Do you follow my point? It's just a game people! There's no "agenda" or the crying out for equality and representation. It's not like it's a political agenda to try to take over the Government. It's a game.

There are press tournaments; tournaments for people over 30, and tournaments for clans. I hope there are more all female tournaments and I hope someone will put together tournaments for couples, tournaments for dads and sons, tournaments for moms and daughters.

It's simply all about the fun and trying to get more people to enjoy it.

It's just a game.

-Katherine Anna Kang

C O M M E N T S
Home » Topic: All-Female Gaming Events

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#1 by "Dethstryk"
2000-08-11 02:33:28
dethstryk@damagegaming.com http://www.damagegaming.com/
I hate it when people are rewarded due to their sex or gender, or think they must band together to do something that they can do with everyone else, such as games.

All-female gaming is ridiculious, as well as any other kind of "special" treatment "minorities" receive.


--
Dethstryk
Damage Gaming
#2 by "Union Carbide"
2000-08-11 02:39:23
smythe@bangg.org http://www.bangg.org
<b>#1</b> "Dethstryk" wrote...
<QUOTE>
All-female gaming is ridiculious, as well as any other kind of "special" treatment "minorities" receive.
</QUOTE>

I guess that the WNBA is ridiculous as well, and should be abolished by law?

I suppose that women and men should compete against each other in the Olypmics as well?
<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#3 by "Apache"
2000-08-11 02:40:20
apache@voodooextreme.com http://www.voodooextreme.com
Not to sound sexist, but I've never met a girl [that's not in the industry or a website] who actually <b>liked</b> playing first person shooters.  

Am I alone here? Where do these girls hang out? I want to meet one :)
#4 by "Jafd"
2000-08-11 02:41:53
jafd@zombieworld.com http://jafd.isfuckingbrilliant.com/
Want more female gamers? Cut straight to the heart of the problem; kill all the asshole male gamers. Should improve lag across the board, too.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#5 by "Dethstryk"
2000-08-11 02:45:00
dethstryk@damagegaming.com http://www.damagegaming.com/
<b>Union Carbide wrote in post #2:</b>
<quote>I suppose that women and men should compete against each other in the Olypmics as well? </quote>
This is the only time I think sex seperation is alright, and that's in physical activity such as sports. I should have made that clear.


--
Dethstryk
Damage Gaming
#6 by "Dethstryk"
2000-08-11 02:45:49
dethstryk@damagegaming.com http://www.damagegaming.com/
<b>Apache wrote in post #3:</b>
<quote>Am I alone here? Where do these girls hang out? I want to meet one :) </quote>
I'd love to meet one myself, but I've never seen one. It'd be great if my girlfriend was into games, but alas. :)


--
Dethstryk
Damage Gaming
#7 by "Morn"
2000-08-11 02:46:43
morn@planetcrap.com http://www.planetcrap.com
6th! :)

I'm all for events like this. And I can't think of anything else to write right now, at 3am. Doh.

- Morn
<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#8 by "Union Carbide"
2000-08-11 02:47:11
smythe@bangg.org http://www.bangg.org
<b>#3</b> "Apache" wrote...
<QUOTE>
Am I alone here? Where do these girls hang out? I want to meet one :) </QUOTE>

They hang out at LAN Parties, where they get an alarming amount of attention.

They hang out on Quake/UT/Tribes/HL servers, and use male-sounding names so they don't have to put up with a bunch of male prepubescent serial-masturbator crap from the other players.

So I guess the answer is. . . they're everywhere.  You just have to know where to look :)<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#9 by "Morn"
2000-08-11 02:47:11
morn@planetcrap.com http://www.planetcrap.com
<b>#7</b> "Morn" wrote...
<QUOTE>6th! :) </QUOTE>

:(((
<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#10 by "Dethstryk"
2000-08-11 02:47:21
dethstryk@damagegaming.com http://www.damagegaming.com/
<b>Jafd wrote in post #4:</b>
<quote>Want more female gamers? Cut straight to the heart of the problem; kill all the asshole male gamers. Should improve lag across the board, too.</quote>
Agreed. Females probably feel very strange when playing with other guys, especially if the guys know they are girls. It's sad but true. (Then again, a lot of gamers I know are sex-starved geeks, and it makes them act like idiots.)


--
Dethstryk
Damage Gaming
#11 by "None-1a"
2000-08-11 02:49:31
none1a@home.com http://www.geocities.com/none-1a/
<b>#Main Post</b> "Anna Kang" wrote...
<QUOTE>Are rocketry clubs for California residents wrong?</QUOTE>

You can't tell me she don't know that wort of thing would be completly different, it's a little hard to belong to a club in California from Inidanna. However if the Cali club started to bitch if I showed up with a friend I'd have a major problem.

<QUOTE>Is offering ladies night at a club wrong?</QUOTE>

Yes, disconts because of your gender, age, or race are wrong period.

<QUOTE>Are separate bathrooms wrong? </QUOTE>

Yes, and rather unessisary waste of space in a building (after all there is nothing in a woman's bathroom that could not be added easly to a male bathroom). Unfortinitly with our sociaty they are a nessiessary evil in public places.

I for one would love to meet some more female gamers, I currently know two in real life (meet quite a number online however). Maybe the focus should slant more towards getting the female gamers to attend more non-female only events.

<b>#2</b> "Union Carbide" wrote...
<QUOTE>I suppose that women and men should compete against each other in the Olypmics
as well? </QUOTE>

Why not, many are just as competative and athletic as the males. The only sport where there could be problems are ones requireing close fisical contact between the competiters, as much as we live to act like we'd think this was ok I still don't think we're ready for that.

--
None-1a.

Sure the spelling looks stupid, but how stupid do you look, after all your only argument is that I'm spelling poorly.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#12 by "Stephanie"
2000-08-11 02:50:05
Stephanie@allgames.com http://www.allgames.com
<b>#10</b> "Dethstryk" wrote...
<QUOTE>Jafd wrote in post #4:

Want more female gamers? Cut straight to the heart of the problem; kill all the asshole male gamers. Should improve lag across the board, too.

Agreed. Females probably feel very strange when playing with other guys, especially if the guys know they are girls. It's sad but true. (Then again, a lot of gamers I know are sex-starved geeks, and it makes them act like idiots.)


--
Dethstryk
Damage Gaming </QUOTE>

That's VERY true...most women who are into games are into them because SOMEONE showed them how. Us girls don't seem to stumble into games on our own, prolly BECAUSE we're told it's something we wouldn't be interested in.

So hey. You want to meet girls who like games? TEACH THEM!!!

The ONLY reason I'm so into Quake now is because my brother told me to "download qtest or die," and aren't I glad he did (otherwise I'd probably still be playing Meridian 59). Go save someone else's gaming life :)<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#13 by "err head"
2000-08-11 02:50:10
err_head@yahoo.com
<b>#5</b> "Dethstryk" wrote...
<QUOTE>
This is the only time I think sex seperation is alright, and that's in physical activity such as sports. I should have made that clear.

</QUOTE>

Why is it okay to discriminate in physical activities? does that mean it's okay to discriminate in any job that involves physical activity?<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#14 by "crash"
2000-08-11 02:53:26
crash@planetcrap.com http://www.planetcrap.com
<i>#include "disclaimer.h"</i>

Dethstryk (#1):
<i>All-female gaming is ridiculious, as well as any other kind of "special" treatment "minorities" receive.</i>

y'know what? i was going to post a bunch of shit about this, but i decided not to. i've talked to Bobbi and Anna and a whole bunch of female gamers about this over the past, what is it now, two years? somethin like that.

and my question to you, my clearly unenlightened posting compadre, is simply this:

<b>How would <i>you</i> integrate women into the fps gaming scene without these types of events?</b>

please do list your suggestions and recommendations, in detail, so we can show you just why none of them will work, and why these types of events are necessary.

and the strange thing is i agree with the sort-of-basic premise of your, er, assertion--i don't think female games should need this type of implied segregation/differentiation in order to become part of the community. in point of fact, i think making this distinction harms, more than helps, the effort. but then i've talked about that before, at length, and nobody listens to me anyway. ;)

i don't think this is the right way to do it, and i certainly don't think it's the only way, but for now, it seems to be the best way.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#15 by "Apache"
2000-08-11 02:54:03
apache@voodooextreme.com http://www.voodooextreme.com
<quote>So hey. You want to meet girls who like games? TEACH THEM!!! </quote>

I have! But the only games they seemed to have liked [enough to play on a daily basis) have been StarCraft and Diablo II. I think the whole chat interface (BNET) and teamwork appeals to women, as they are much more social than us guys.
#16 by "Morn"
2000-08-11 02:55:16
morn@planetcrap.com http://www.planetcrap.com
<b>#12</b> "Stephanie" wrote...
<QUOTE>The ONLY reason I'm so into Quake now is because my brother told me to "download qtest or die," and aren't I glad he did (otherwise I'd probably still be playing Meridian 59). Go save someone else's gaming life :)</QUOTE>

Personally, I had more fun in Meridian 59 than in qtest. ;)

- Morn
<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#17 by "Dethstryk"
2000-08-11 02:56:54
dethstryk@damagegaming.com http://www.damagegaming.com/
<b>err head wrote in post #13:</b>
<quote>Why is it okay to discriminate in physical activities? does that mean its okay to discriminate in any job that involves physical activity?</quote>
Who knows.

None-1a made a good point in #11, and women really can compete with men if they <i>tried</a> in sports. I'm kind of not for or against the sports seperation thing.


--
Dethstryk
Damage Gaming
#18 by "Dethstryk"
2000-08-11 02:59:14
dethstryk@damagegaming.com http://www.damagegaming.com/
<b>crash wrote in post #14:</b>
<quote><B>How would <I>you</I> integrate women into the fps gaming scene without these types of events?</B> </quote>
Is there a reason why we should try and integrate women into the FPS gaming scene? Why can't they pick it up just like everyone else has to?

I know one of the ways NOT to do it is to have a female role in a game, because then you have a bunch of guys hornily playing that character. On the flip side of the coin, girls are just going to be disgusted most of the time.

Man, this is my kind of topic. ;)


--
Dethstryk
Damage Gaming
#19 by "Twitch"
2000-08-11 02:59:23
twitch@gamepig.com http://www.gamepig.com
#3 Apache wrote:
<quote>Not to sound sexist, but I've never met a girl [that's not in the industry or a website] who actually liked playing first person shooters.

Am I alone here? Where do these girls hang out? I want to meet one :) </quote>

Off the top of my head, I can think of at least a dozen women who play Quake CTF competitively, including at least two husband-wife teams who played on the same clan. Having met a number of them in person, I can attest they're not male imposters either :)

I run a gaming site as a hobby which helps keep me off the streets, and the two people that run it with me are both women....I suppose they don't count, falling under your "website" category, but they both write for it because of their interest in shooters, not vice versa :)

Anyway, women in the shooter community are not mythological creatures, believe it or not :)
#20 by "Splort"
2000-08-11 03:05:21
jglor@cts.com
Does anybody think that an all female tournament is going to excite and bring in any females who aren't already into gaming?
#21 by "Dethstryk"
2000-08-11 03:10:03
dethstryk@damagegaming.com http://www.damagegaming.com/
<b>Splort wrote in post #20:</b>
<quote>Does anybody think that an all female tournament is going to excite and bring in any females who aren't already into gaming? </quote>
Not really. I just think all it does is prove that there are female gamers out there.. big whoop. A gamer is a gamer, regardless of sex.


--
Dethstryk
Damage Gaming
#22 by "Nemesis"
2000-08-11 03:12:28
stevenlawton@thefreeinternet.co.uk
Maybe not a tournament but perhaps a sponsored LAN with spare machines so that existing women gamers can bring along friends.

I know I got a lot of my male friends interested in FPS after I convinced them to go to a LAN.

Nemesis
#23 by "crash"
2000-08-11 03:22:58
crash@planetcrap.com http://www.planetcrap.com
<i>#insert "disclaimer.h"</i>

Dethstryk (#18):

see, now we're cookin with gas. :)

<i>Why can't they pick it up just like everyone else has to?</i>

because--and here comes the weird, sort-of stereotypical part--females are more social creatures than males. i know, i know, hard to believe, but it's true. thus, in order for a girl to be comfortable somewhere she's never been before (say, LAN party, major gaming event, etc), she is not going to go alone. guys, fuck, guys don't give a shit... long as i got my box, and my ice chest, i'm good. i'll meet ppl when i get there, no biggie. and if i don't, no biggie.

girls, however, don't think that way.

also to consider: you're a girl that's good at games. let's say, real good. you're, oh, 19-22 years old. do you REALLY want to walk alone into a room with 750 guys that have, on the average, a half a gig of porn on their machines? that think a Jenna Jameson anatomy-lesson desktop is kewlio? that have no problem looping an mpeg of a monkey pissin in his own mouth and falling over? or that play Trippin the Rift over and over and over? and yeah, i've been to hundreds of LAN parties and events in the past, and i have literally seen it all. those are only some of the lighter examples, i assure you.

i know a lot of girls that would just dive right in. don't you?

<i>I know one of the ways NOT to do it is to have a female role in a game, because then you have a bunch of guys hornily playing that character.</i>

er. i play female chars in online games almost exclusively, and "horniness" has nothing to do with it. sounds to me like you need to lighten that load of stereotypes, son--it's weighin down your brain and clearly cloggin your thought processes.

so. now that we've got your question answered, how about you step up and try mine:

<b>How would <i>you</i> integrate women into the fps gaming scene without these types of events?</b>

and the longer you dodge this, the harder it'll be.

<i>Man, this is my kind of topic. ;)</i>

yeah, i just bet.
<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#24 by "crash"
2000-08-11 03:30:05
crash@planetcrap.com http://www.planetcrap.com
Splort (#20):
<i>Does anybody think that an all female tournament is going to excite and bring in any females who aren't already into gaming?</i>

no, but that isn't the intention. it's to let women that already play know there are other women out there, and give them the chance to meet and socialize. this is the type of thing that needs a seed to grow, and this is the seed.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#25 by "None-1a"
2000-08-11 03:32:35
none1a@home.com http://www.geocities.com/none-1a/
<b>#23</b> "crash" wrote...
<QUOTE><B>How would <I>you</I> integrate women into the fps gaming scene without these
types of events?</B>
</QUOTE>

Try to intergrate them into the normal gamming scene, and try to change the male perseption of female gamers (ok so that second steps damn hard to do). Let's face it no matter how many all female events they attend the same old problems with attending a normal event are still there.

As guys we can all help out a bit by trying to change whe why we and others act.

*None-1a, thinks out loud, good thing Bayor hasn't seen this thread yet.

--
None-1a.

Sure the spelling looks stupid, but how stupid do you look, after all your only argument is that I'm spelling poorly.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#26 by "Dethstryk"
2000-08-11 03:33:28
dethstryk@damagegaming.com http://www.damagegaming.com/
<b>crash wrote in post #23:</b>
<quote>girls, however, don't think that way. </quote>
That's very true.

<quote>i know a lot of girls that would just dive right in. don't you? </quote>
This is exactly the problem with the clash between male and female gamers. If I was a girl, I sure as hell would not go into a convention where I knew a 100 something geeks would be starting at various parts of my anatomy, drooling the whole time.

What am I trying to say? Male gamers basically shoo (how the hell  do you spell that?) female gamers away. Simple as that.

<quote>er. i play female chars in online games almost exclusively, and "horniness" has nothing to do with it. sounds to me like you need to lighten that load of stereotypes, son--it's weighin down your brain and clearly cloggin your thought processes. </quote>
This stereotype is in my mind because it is how I see most male gamers. I don't know about you, but in my area the large majority of "hardcore" gamers are stay-at-home geeks who haven't really ever had a relationship. I suspect it to be the same everywhere else, and that's proven by the legions of Tomb Raider fanatics and the such.

<quote>so. now that we've got your question answered, how about you step up and try mine:

and the longer you dodge this, the harder it'll be. </quote>
I'm not dodging your question, I'm simply saying that I see no reason for anyone to try and integrate women in the FPS gaming scene any other way than normal. Like I said, I think the majority of male gamers turn off prospective female gamers by how they act.


--
Dethstryk
Damage Gaming
--
Dethstryk
Damage Gaming
#27 by "Dethstryk"
2000-08-11 03:35:10
dethstryk@damagegaming.com http://www.damagegaming.com/
<b>Dethstryk wrote in post #26:</b>
<quote>--
Dethstryk
Damage Gaming
--
Dethstryk
Damage Gaming </quote>
Damn. I've done it in the past, you think I'd learn. :)
#28 by "Nemesis"
2000-08-11 03:40:19
stevenlawton@thefreeinternet.co.uk
It has to be said from the LAN party I was at this weekend where there was one ( yes count them one ) female gamer, there was none of the drooling I expected, everyone looked up took note and got on with their games.

Then she 0wn3d us in Quake 3...
#29 by "Katherine Anna Kang"
2000-08-11 03:41:28
kak@fountainheadent.com http://www.fountainheadent.com
From my experience, most people (whatever sex, race, age, or profession) tend to feel more comfortable with individuals who have similar interests or backgrounds.  Whether it's people from the same College, State, or Country - most people are drawn to that sense of familiarity.  Most people also like the thought of getting some prizes.  Combine these two elements and the probability of someone giving an activity a chance drastically improves.

Currently, the most effective way of getting ladies to the various gaming events have been all female events - that is a fact!

If someone has a fun and better way of attracting female FPS players, he/she should go ahead and give it a try if they'd like - I wish you all the luck.

It's not "our" collective responsibility to get more women into FPS games but if someone "wants to" make the effort, why be such a wet blanket about it?

Female Quake tournaments have historically been focused on FUN competition.  It's not about how women are stronger or weaker players than men, it's about the fun camaraderie part of gaming.

There are a lot of ways to have fun with these games and whether it's an all female tournament, a team tournament, a father and son tournament, or a couple's tournament, as long as it's for fun, why get your panties all up in a wad about it?
#30 by "FeMaLe.GaMeR"
2000-08-11 03:43:04
I for one have never entered any sort of Quake tournament - mainly due to the fact that I am intimidated by the number of people that attend. Not only are there an extremely high number of people in the tournament, but about 99.9% of these players are male. For someone like me, a female player that had really never started playing FPS's until less than a year ago, that can be somewhat overwhelming especially that unneeded attention is put on you for being female.

Now everyone says that these all-female tournaments are what draw so much attention to the woman gamer, but I have to disagree. Walking around in QuakeCon this year I was having my photo taken left and right by people who were muttering under there breath, "Oooh, girl gamer! Get the camera!" Mind you this is VERY distracting when I'm trying to slam a rail up someone's ass. Do you honestly think there will be any of this at an all-female gathering? All focus on the gender is left at the door at these events. Eveyone is female - noone gets special attention or special priveledges. We can play against eachother without gawking male onlookers trying to comprehend, "What is that girl doing in front of the computer??"

Because of these things, you're able to bring new female gamers out into the open. Sometimes people need to splash around in the wading pool before they dive into the ocean. I don't think female gamers will be a MAJOR role in the industry any time soon. Girls are still being raised with the idea that they need to prepare their whole lives for having babies and driving minivans. But at least the players at an all-female tournament won't mutter under their breath when a minivan sneaks in the back. ^_^
#31 by "None-1a"
2000-08-11 03:52:41
none1a@home.com http://www.geocities.com/none-1a/
<b>#29</b> "Katherine Anna Kang" wrote...
<QUOTE>There are a lot of ways to have fun with these games and whether it's an all
female tournament, a team tournament, a father and son tournament, or a couple's
tournament, as long as it's for fun, why get your panties all up in a wad about
it? </QUOTE>

Frankly I don't care that there are all female events, however; I would like to know what if any thing is being tried to convece more females to attend more traditional events and ease the shock that will still be there even after attending the all female events (gamer girl mentiond this shock as well).

Getting more to attend the normal events might help snap a few of the other guys out of this oO girl crap.

--
None-1a.

Sure the spelling looks stupid, but how stupid do you look, after all your only argument is that I'm spelling poorly.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#32 by "Katherine Anna Kang"
2000-08-11 03:53:08
kak@fountainheadent.com http://www.fountainheadent.com
Splort wrote in post #20:

<QUOTE> Does anybody think that an all female tournament is going to excite and bring in any females who aren't already into gaming? </QUOTE>

Yes I do.  In fact, I know it does.  I know of two women who did not play ANY computer games but gave it a try because of the previous female tournaments.  I also know of one very wonderful girl who has never played a computer game in her life who's considering picking up Quake III Arena just so she might join in on the Frag IV all female tourney.
#33 by "Paul"
2000-08-11 03:53:32
paul@paulbullman.com http://www.paulbullman.com
Not sure if anyone mentioned the three most famous FPS players, Stevie Case.

If someone enjoys playing video games more power to 'em. Personally, none of my female friends enjoy FPS games. I know a few addicted to Dr. Mario, but that's about it when it comes to any video games.

- Paul
#34 by "O-3"
2000-08-11 03:59:19
mreff@javanet.com
<QUOTE>This is exactly the problem with the clash between male and female gamers. If I was a girl,
                                         I sure as hell would not go into a convention where I knew a 100 something geeks would be
                                         starting at various parts of my anatomy, drooling the whole time.

                                         What am I trying to say? Male gamers basically shoo (how the hell do you spell that?)
                                         female gamers away. Simple as that.</QUOTE>.



<QUOTE>I think
                                         the majority of male gamers turn off prospective female gamers by how they act. </QUOTE>.

Um, Dethstryke, I don't understand what you're saying? First you say that females shouldn't be able to organize thier own events, then you say that if you were a girl you would never go to a normal event because you'd feel harassed. What's wrong with girls getting together for a game (where they KNOW they don't have to worry about the socially retarded)
#35 by "Stephanie"
2000-08-11 04:09:10
Stephanie@allgames.com http://www.allgames.com
Yes.

I can't TELL you how many women told me they bought Q2 specifically to play in the FFF, and I'm sure Anna had the same experience with the AFT, and Tak with the QOTH.

So, um, yeah. :) We know it does, because we've done it before. :)

<b>#32</b>
<QUOTE>Splort wrote in post #20:


Does anybody think that an all female tournament is going to excite and bring in any females who aren't already into gaming?
 </QUOTE><I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#36 by "Ghost in my Shell"
2000-08-11 04:16:38
I've tried to get the ladies more into computer games in the past, and the biggest problem is trying to get some way for them to practice.

The mouse/keyboard thing is difficult to get the hang of if your new to the whole comp gaming scene.

Yes the best way to get good is to join a server with Quake players with godlike skills, but for beginners there needs to be training modes and practice shoots or something...

Quake 3 and UT with their bots I would say are the best route for training but the machines the girls have will not run these games very well...

So naturally I start them on a program of Doom, then Quake, and finally whatever game they want to play...
#37 by "VeeSPIKE"
2000-08-11 04:20:37
appliedavoidanc@triton.net
<b>#33</b> "Paul A. Bullman" wrote this stuff"
<QUOTE>Not sure if anyone mentioned the three most famous FPS players, Stevie Case.

</QUOTE>

See, and it is exactly stuff like that that will turn off female gamers, for the most part. Or at least blunt any enthusiasm for the games that they might have had for playing the game.

Then there is the other side the coin, the Chivalry Brigade that invariably rides to the defense  of the offended maiden, and make equal fools out of themselves in the process. God I hate that.

Personally, I think all-female tournaments are fine. Whatever gets them involved. I just wish that the lot of us would grow up and we could get past the need for them.

 <I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#38 by "bagofmice"
2000-08-11 04:24:09
rcastle@microsoft.com
Bah! The best way to get more female gamers is to get more female geeks, and this means begin the training early! That's right, little six year olds should be able to tell you just exactly how much ram they have on their box, and you should get them to try overclocking by age ten. A formal effort to make people understand the concepts of informational sciences. Indeedyily do, that's the ticket.

When stereotype of transfering lots of data and networking (aka gossip) is applied to machines you will start to see a big shift. Into 3rd gear mind you. The tarrifs on intercourse are breaking down! Who knows, in the next 20 years you could see disturbing upswing in the rocket riding phenomenon as it relates to people who understand the concept and origin.

I'm hungry.
#39 by "Whisp"
2000-08-11 04:27:19
whisp_@hotmail.com
I saw in the paper this morning that in the US the number of women over age 2 online now  exceeds the number of males over 2 online.  I couldn't read the article, unfortunately, because I'm too cheap to buy one - all I know is what little I could see through that little window.

-Whisp
#40 by "Pipes"
2000-08-11 04:28:37
boardboy77@hotmail.com
Geeezz PPL, Howz a woman to win if its not an All woman tournie?? you actually think you could be beatin' by a woman?? Sheesh common now...

 Just a joke ppl just a joke!

The point is, its just a gaming tournie, really?  Who cares?  I think its ill adavised & unproductive for ppl as a whole to sanction events or meeting were ppl gather in minorties, sexes or as a like mind in an atempt to gather power or sway for something negitive, vain, or hinders positive progression of the general public. But to play a video game?  Just for fun?  Not like its a Rally for the RIGHTS OF THE OPRESSED WOMEN GAMERS!  or something stupid like that.  

No one person in the world holds more power in the world today than a woman.  No one.
#41 by "Katherine Anna Kang"
2000-08-11 04:37:43
kak@fountainheadent.com http://www.fountainheadent.com
#38 "bagofmice" wrote...

<QUOTE> Bah! The best way to get more female gamers is to get more female geeks, and this means begin the training early! That's right, little six year olds should be able to tell you just exactly how much ram they have on their box, and you should get them to try overclocking by age ten... </QUOTE>

LOL!  Alright, that was a pretty funny post... sorta cute in it's own weird way with a dash of truth mixed in with a pint of sarcasm.
#42 by "Dethstryk"
2000-08-11 04:49:42
dethstryk@damagegaming.com http://www.damagegaming.com/
<b>O-3 wrote in post #34:</b>
<quote>Um, Dethstryke, I don't understand what you're saying? First you say that females shouldn't be able to organize thier own events, then you say that if you were a girl you would never go to a normal event because you'd feel harassed. What's wrong with girls getting together for a game (where they KNOW they don't have to worry about the socially retarded) </quote>

I don't recall saying girls *shouldn't* organize their own events, but you also don't see males organizing *male only* events. If that happened, it would immediately be labled sexist and wrong.

There's nothing wrong with girls getting together, because it's about the only choice they have. Unfortunately, the reason because of that is a lot of the atrocious male gamers.


--
Dethstryk
Damage Gaming
#43 by "Dethstryk"
2000-08-11 04:52:09
dethstryk@damagegaming.com http://www.damagegaming.com/
Here's another point to ponder:

Are female only tournaments available because the females can't keep up skill-wise with male players? Or are women afraid to join open tournaments because they think they are under-skilled?


--
Dethstryk
Damage Gaming
#44 by "Apache"
2000-08-11 04:57:57
apache@voodooextreme.com http://www.voodooextreme.com
Deth: I think (could be wrong) that it's a proven fact that women have better hand-eye coordination than men.
#45 by "Steve Bauman"
2000-08-11 04:58:34
sbauman@adelphia.net http://homepages.together.net/~sbauman/
<b>#42</b> "Dethstryk" wrote...
<QUOTE>
I don't recall saying girls *shouldn't* organize their own events, but you also don't see males organizing *male only* events. If that happened, it would immediately be labled sexist and wrong.
</QUOTE>
Well, this is basically the same argument as, "Why are there African-American clubs; if there was a 'White American' club, people would be up in arms."

Here's an analogy. Why are there, say, specific comic book conventions? Shouldn't they just merge with other conventions, say an NRA gun convention? (Guns and comics, whoo hoo!) No, because comic book people feel a  kinship with each other and want to be with like-minded people.

This is a fairly broad topic, but the problem with sex and race is bred into society; people judge each other and are defined by their sex and/or nationality/color. It's practically unavoidable, as that's the first and most superfical way to judge someone without knowing them. And despite the anonymity of the Internet, that's not going to change any time soon (and whether it WOULD be good for us to be a sort of genderless and raceless society is certainly debatable; it would be pretty damn boring, that's for sure).

But when you're a member of a minority group, you tend to want to group together with other people of your minority. That's a very natural thing to do. Women gamers are currently a minority, and as their numbers increase, there will be little need for women-only clans or tournaments.

In theory at least.

---
"My life is a patio of fun."<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#46 by "FeMaLe.GaMeR"
2000-08-11 04:59:35
<quote> Geeezz PPL, Howz a woman to win if its not an All woman tournie?? you actually think you could be beatin' by a woman?? Sheesh common now... </quote>

Ok, I know this is a joke and all - but it's certainly not the first time I've heard this statement, and usually the times I've heard it in the past people have meant it. A lot of people say that girls would never be able to win these large tournaments because they can't beat the guys - the guys are just too good right? The guys just completely rule within the world of everything competetive, girls will just never win! Ok, now I'm making myself laugh.

Let's do some simple math people. Let's say that 1 out of 10 FPS gamers is female. Then lets say you host a little LAN party with ten GREAT gamers - one of them female. What are the chances that this one person out of ten is going to win? Sure it's possible but it's more likely that she will do something like place within the top 3 or top 5. This isn't because girls suck. This isn't because guys are better. This is just a matter of common mathematics and people who say that "girls can't win, so they need their own event" just can't come up with a better excuse for their prejudice against all-female tourneys.

*steps down off her soapbox* :)
#47 by "Steve Bauman"
2000-08-11 05:02:10
sbauman@adelphia.net http://homepages.together.net/~sbauman/
<b>#43</b> "Dethstryk" wrote...
<QUOTE>
Are female only tournaments available because the females can't keep up skill-wise with male players? Or are women afraid to join open tournaments because they think they are under-skilled?
</QUOTE>
I suspect if there were near-equal number of men and women entrants this wouldn't be an issue. Would you want to be the only woman at one of these tournaments? Talk about being self-conscious...

Besides, Happy Cow kicks my sorry ass at Motocross Madness 2 with great regularity. And she's a better Diablo II player than I. And I wouldn't be surprised if she was better at Unreal Tournament as well.

Maybe I just suck.

---
"My life is a patio of fun."<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#48 by "Charlie Wiederhold"
2000-08-11 05:04:05
charliew@3drealms.com
So how long would an intentionally male only tournament last before they would be forced to admit women?

Am I allowed to sign up for this tournament? You know that if I actually cared enough to get lawyers involved you would wind up having to allow me (and every other guy) to enter.

----

There aren't any easy solutions to integrate women into the FPS scene. It's about as easy as trying to get more women to play American Football. Whether that is a good thing or not, it's just a fact of life.

By making an all female tournament you help turn it into an "issue" whether that is your intention or not. Why can't it be a tournament that focuses on the female gamer, but allows men to come as well? All the talks of the show would focus on what it means to be a female gamer, the topics that the female gamer is interested, etc. without discriminating by saying "No, because of your sex you are not allowed to play with us". This way you have your female tournament, but are also working towards integration of both genders in the game, not seperation.

The current tournaments are certainly ones with a focus on the male gamer point of view, but female gamers are allowed to come. There would be arms up in an instant if any tournament intentionally tried to not allow females to attend.

Make a female oriented tournament, but don't alienate someone because they are a guy. Maybe that guy is just there to gawk at the girls (Though forgive my crudeness, a large chunk of those girls are not gawking material, flame me all you like. However fair is fair, neither are the guys), but maybe you will also find that segment of the male community who actually does enjoy the concept of a balanced playing field. Of course, just like a female gamer who attents a male oriented tournament is seen as doing "boy things", the guy will have to put up with doing "girl things" which is MUCH more difficult for most guys to get over.

As for the examples Anna lists above: You are going to be hard pressed to find a father son tournmant that won't allow a mother daughter, mother son, father daughter, uncle son, etc. combo enter. The spirit of the tournament is still there, even if they allow someone who doesn't fit in the group perfectly to feel welcome. Same goes for a California based club, etc. The only time you won't find this is if the logistics of it simply don't work (office tournaments held in an office on office property, the person organizing it has to keep a tight check on who plays, etc).

See that's what it boils down to. Normal tournaments have never intentionally said "Female gamers are not welcome here". Female gamers may not *feel* welcome because the guys are being guys, but they are still welcome. However an all female tournament is outright saying "Male gamers are not welcome".

Instead of organizing a female only tournament, why not work just as hard organizing to make a large showing of female gamers at the next QuakeCon. Instead of 1000 female gamers for their own event, why not say "Let's try to get 1000 female gamers for QCon 2001!!!". That seems like a FAR more productive goal and one that actually works towards integrating woment and men gamers.

Charlie Wiederhold
#49 by "Dethstryk"
2000-08-11 05:04:33
dethstryk@damagegaming.com http://www.damagegaming.com/
<b>Apache wrote in post #44:</b>
<quote>Deth: I think (could be wrong) that it's a proven fact that women have better hand-eye coordination than men. </quote>
Hell, I'd believe it. I think of women as better than men anyway.


--
Dethstryk
Damage Gaming
#50 by "Charlie Wiederhold"
2000-08-11 05:05:05
charliew@3drealms.com
The main meat of my post above is in the last paragraph or two, in case anybody skims it and doesn't really get it. It helps answer crash's question as well.

Charlie Wiederhold
C O M M E N T S
Home » Topic: All-Female Gaming Events

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