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Cheater-Strike
August 6th 2000, 13:23 CEST by Lurks

What started as a humble mod for Half-Life rapidly turned into the most popular action multiplayer game on the Internet today. Counter-Strike continues to draw new players into online gaming but sadly this positive force is overshadowed by unprecidented levels of cheating. Only recently have the Counter-Strike crew begun to seriously tackle the cheats, in the mean time leagues and tournaments have sprung up around the world with many more set to follow...



If it wasn't bad enough that such a popular game can be exploited by amateur hackers, now popular graphics card vendor Asus has produced video drivers with a '3D SeeThrough technology' feature which renders walls transparent. Naturally there was a public outcry with open letters demanding the removal of this feature from the Online Gamers Association and the Online Gaming League. It seems this isn't enough for Asus and they've recently been quoted as saying that they intend to have an Internet vote (well actually they said 'volt' but we get the idea) to settle the issue.

Asus weren't the first to force this issue, veterans may remember that Metabyte released drivers for their Wicked3D 3Dfx Voodoo-based cards that had this same functionality. Public opinion forced them to withdraw them but like the Asus drivers, once released - they found their way into the underground.

This would appear not to bode well for the future of online gaming. If software developers and hardware developers can't present a united front to the cheaters would would gain an unfair advantage, then how can online gaming every be taken seriously in amateur and professional online leagues the world over?

Thankfully the software side of things is rapidly being addressed. We spoke to Minh Le, aka Gooseman - the programmer of Counter-Strike, and got his thoughts on the cheating issue.

Why is it that there are so many viable cheats for Counter-Strike? Was it naivety on your part or inherent weaknesses in the Half-Life engine?

Yeah, it's just us being completely stupid. In fact, I'm surprised there were so few cheats considering the extra commands we were giving the players.

How much do you think cheating has hurt CS as a competitive game?

Obviously it hurts it a lot.

Do you think you would have had the same issues having used another game engine for your mod?

It's hard to say. I see a lot of cheats for Quake3 these days. I've even been told someone developed a full blown autoaim proxy for Q3. Now if that was in CS, there would be major cause for concern.

What sort of cheats have you fixed recently?

The major ones that I address in BETA 7 are the silent AWP shots, flashbang clearing (this was fixed in 6.6) and the "headshot script". They've been fixed.

It appears third-party mod developers like the Counter-Strike team are doing what they can. Now if Valve Software, makers of the Half-Life engine, can step up to the fold and deliver some engine fixes to cheats which can't be fixed by Gooseman (and they exist but we shant mention them specifically) then we're half way there. All that's left is Asus, whome hold the power to undermine all the hard work done by everyone else to combat the cheaters.

Will Asus do the right thing? Even if they do, how long will it be until yet another graphics card vendor comes up with a 'nifty new feature' to add? Perhaps online gaming is doomed to be rife with cheaters and Angel Munoz of the CPL was right in saying that the only way to hold a respectable competition is on a LAN.

C O M M E N T S
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#1 by "Apache"
2000-08-06 13:29:00
apache@voodooextreme.com http://www.voodooextreme.com
huzzah
#2 by "Indy"
2000-08-06 13:35:12
indy@anybody.co.uk
Other online game such as Ultima Online and Everquest have been plagued by cheating software, such as proxy clients.  They change their network code slightly every few weeks but all that does is force cheaters to download newer version of the cheats.

It's very difficult to cope with, proxy clients can just force 'lies' into the data stream so their use cannot be detected.

There are so many 'savvy' players on the net, amatuer programmers with a little skill can knock up cheat software in no time at all.

In QuakeWorld there was a proxy client which would tell the game client to draw particles over walls, behind which were other players.  Hitting a key would snap to the nearest tracer particle and fire.

How is this ever going to be sorted out?  Quake3's netcode was 'cracked' and cheats have been out for it for ages... and Quake3 was built to be hard to cheat with!

Oh dear.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#3 by "Lurks"
2000-08-06 13:46:02
lurks@planetcrap.com http://www.planetcrap.com
<b>#2</b> "Indy" wrote...
<QUOTE>

Other online game such as Ultima Online and Everquest have been plagued by cheating software, such as proxy clients. They change their network code slightly every few weeks but all that does is force cheaters to download newer version of the cheats.
</Quote>

Goes for all games doesn't it. It takes time for the hackers to crack the new code. Perhaps there should be technology for auto updating a networking code .dll or something so that the data stream encryption changes regularly.

That said, data stream hacking is not the biggest issue. There still is not, as far as I know, an aiming proxy for CS. There's just one that fakes CRCs but that's not the same level.

<quote>
There are so many 'savvy' players on the net, amatuer programmers with a little skill can knock up cheat software in no time at all.
</quote>

Well, I don't think that's really the case. What's been seen so far in my example (Counter-Strike) are nearly ALL exploits. Cheats that were simply mistakes. I have seen a genuine client-side hack (that works unfortunately) but most of it are things that can be fixed. Are being fixed.

<quote>
How is this ever going to be sorted out? Quake3's netcode was 'cracked' and cheats have been out for it for ages... and Quake3 was built to be hard to cheat with!
</quote>

Quake 3 does not have a reputation for cheating. Counter-Strike does. I feel this is a bit far of the issue here - it IS possible to foil cheaters, remove exploits and make things much tougher to the point where the game retains some credibility. However ... that's all undermined by things like these goddamn Asus video drivers.

Asus, the same guys that are legendary among the hard core PC folks for motherboards and so on. The same guys they're looking to screw over with these video drivers. The issue makes me very angry indeed and I assume I am not alone.

<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#4 by "Flamethrower"
2000-08-06 13:51:59
Punters are lulled into a false sense of security thanks to the corruption at Bluesnews and, I think, other news sites.

Blue has a deliberate editorial policy of not covering cheating stories, and by that I don't mean places to download proxy bots, I mean stories in general including things to look out for.

Nobody should be fooled, you can't trust an online game, any online game.

Why wasn't THAT Gamasutra cheating article linked in this story. It should have been.
#5 by "Indy"
2000-08-06 13:59:18
indy@anybody.co.uk
<quote>Well, I don't think that's really the case. What's been seen so far in my example (Counter-Strike) are nearly ALL exploits. Cheats that were simply mistakes. I have seen a genuine client-side hack (that works unfortunately) but most of it are things that can be fixed. Are being fixed. </quote>

There are different levels of cheats.  Exploiting weak areas of the game engine (different models, scripts) is the simplest.
More complex is software that intercepts the datastream and tweaks it, for instance with the CS cheats 'fixing' the CRC checking of the game content.
The worst is proxy software which uses the infomation in the network data stream in the actual game, for instance aim bot proxies interpret the data, find out the locations of enemies and then tell the real client to move to face a certain location.
EVEN more worst than that is proxy software which exploits the servers.  I have not really seen this in FPS games but in Ultima Online there are be forced "dupes" of items but proxies confusing the servers - they send data which the regular game clients cannot, and the servers are not prepared for what they recieve.

When online gaming gets closer links to finanial rewards with prizes from tourament, amatuer programmers will have REAL motivation to developer seriously damaging cheat tools.

How to stop this?  Is there a way?!<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#6 by "Indy"
2000-08-06 14:01:23
indy@anybody.co.uk
I apologise for my poor spelling and grammer... I'll read through posts before submitting from now on.

Indy.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#7 by "Lurks"
2000-08-06 14:01:27
lurks@planetcrap.com http://www.planetcrap.com
<b>#4</b> "Flamethrower" wrote...
<QUOTE>

Why wasn't THAT Gamasutra cheating article linked in this story. It should have been.
</QUOTE>

Um, I've seen plenty of cheating articles and so on. Why did that one have to be mentioned?

As for an editorial policy on not mentioning cheating, I can see the logic there. Unfortunately it hasn't worked for CS. I'm the head admin for a sizable CS league in the UK (PC Gamer Counter-Strike Championships) and I can tell you what's worse than the actual cheating itself...

It's the fact that someone MIGHT be cheating. Every single clan that gets hammered whines that the other side were cheating. I estimate over 90% of the accusations are bogus, essentially there are hard working and very skilled clans out there that eclipse relatively new players. They can't comprehend how they can be destroyed so easily, so it must be cheating.

In fact with Gooseman's latest fixes - the vast bulk of the exploits will be gone. It remains for Valve to fix a nasty texture cheat and update the networking protocol to defeat the CRC proxy. Then CS will be as secure as most other popular online multiplayer games.

So things aren't as bad as the CS playing scene think. At least not after the CS team turned CRC checking on in Counter-Strike. Doh!

But Asus. Oh deary deary me. What can be done about Asus.
<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#8 by "Lurks"
2000-08-06 14:05:04
lurks@planetcrap.com http://www.planetcrap.com
<b>#5</b> "Indy" wrote...
<QUOTE>

When online gaming gets closer links to finanial rewards with prizes from tourament, amatuer programmers will have REAL motivation to developer seriously damaging cheat tools.
</QUOTE>

There's a general consensus that if you're handing out money or significant prizes, the finals must be held on a LAN.

<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#9 by "Indy"
2000-08-06 14:07:58
indy@anybody.co.uk
<quote>
But Asus. Oh deary deary me. What can be done about Asus. </quote>

Have the game do a driver version check for the 'rouge' driver releases?  Many games do a system check for showing driver types (opengl/dx) so this would just be an extension of that.

That's just an idea, the moral issues and other (security?) problems are slightly more contentous.

Indy.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#10 by "Dethstryk"
2000-08-06 14:14:04
dethstryk@damagegaming.com http://www.damagegaming.com/
<b>Indy wrote in post #9:</b>
<quote>That's just an idea, the moral issues and other (security?) problems are slightly more contentous. </quote>
Moral issues? That's about non-existent, since cheaters obviously have no morals when it comes to other people's enjoyment and also are probably sad individuals in person. Cheaters are the people that wanted to be a bully in school, but were too much of a twerp to do it.


--
Dethstryk
Damage Gaming
#11 by "Indy"
2000-08-06 14:20:04
indy@anybody.co.uk
<quote>Moral issues? That's about non-existent, since cheaters obviously have no morals when it comes to other people's enjoyment and also are probably sad individuals in person. Cheaters are the people that wanted to be a bully in school, but were too much of a twerp to do it. </quote>

In the past there have been instances of software taking information from a users computer and using it for "more than config decisions".
Remember Blizzard taking player details from their registery from Starcraft (iirc)?  OK So my idea isn't that bad but it might entail similar issues.

And driver versions can be easily hacked, so a REAL solution against cheat vid drivers would be for the game to actually check the rendering process - mod authors wouldn't have a clue where to begin on that front, and for the actual developers it might be just too much hassle.
Any other ideas?

Indy.
<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#12 by "Dethstryk"
2000-08-06 14:37:48
dethstryk@damagegaming.com http://www.damagegaming.com/
<b>Indy wrote in post #11:</b>
<quote>In the past there have been instances of software taking information from a users computer and using it for "more than config decisions". </quote>
Ahh, alright. I thought you were talking about something else.

And moral issues be damned! Give a disclaimer before it checks to see what driver you are using, state the reason why, and if someone says no, screw 'em.

Anybody who uses the ASUS drivers doesn't need to be playing the game, period. Sure, let it work in single player, but if touches *my* and *everyone* else's multiplayer game, I consider that a fault for the developer. (Within reason, of course. Any new game that comes out now should check for this driver, plain and simple.)


--
Dethstryk
Damage Gaming
#13 by "EvilAsh"
2000-08-06 14:44:24
evilash@eviladam.com http://www.eviladam.com
I Tell ya what .. Everyone makes a big friggin deal about Counterstrike.. And every friggin Game with a decent mod scene worth its salt has mods attempting to duplicate that title.

You know what?

I don't find Counterstrike original or entertaining.


I played a full game before Counterstrike was ever released..

Rainbow Six.

That was the first REALISTIC Counter-Terrorism title released. That started the ball rolling.

And people make it seem like Counterstrike is so damn original. PUHLEAZE.

Truthfully I am tired of the whole realistic Mod scene in general.  

You want realistic weaponry? Go to a firing range.

Where are the Original Fun Mods that take an Engine and turn it on its ear?

Where are the Quake RAllys' ,The PainKeeps and others that show incredible imagination?

The whole point of mods and companies releasing tools is for one to show of your imagination and develop something Different and original and Cause the developer of that said title..to GAsp And go .. Holy SHIT ,I never thought of doing that.

I always remember when John Carmack commented on Quake RAlly and how he was amazed at what they had done.

You know people lament how many today's title's are boring or unimaginative.. well a perfect example of this type of design is in the mod scene..

REmember if these guys get hired by a company guess what? IF they are known for making a boring unimaginative mod..WTF makes anyone believe in their right minds that with a company's resources behind them that they will actually Do Something that much better and that much more creative?

Its so sad to see these creat tools and kits wasted on boring me-too mods.

How many REalistic Type mods and games are out now?

RAinbow Six
Rogue Spear
Soldier of Fortune
Delta Force 1/2
ACtion Quake 2
Action UT
CounterSTrike
STrikeForce for UT/Tribes2
ACtion Half-Life
Spec-ops
Swat3

Where is the creativity,People?!



PSS: After reading the first 6 posts I realized this thread was well..BORING. So I hope no one minds I take it in a different direction.

Cause Cheating is OLd As gaming. And that's it in a nutshell folks.
#14 by "PiRaMidA"
2000-08-06 14:54:52
piramida@agsm.net http://www.agsm.net
Post <b>#12</b> by Dethstryk:
<QUOTE><i>
Within reason, of course. Any new game that comes out now should check for this driver, plain and simple.
</i></QUOTE>

How hard would it be for ASUS to update their driver? Would not work, unless of course ASUS is against cheating, in which case I don't understand why they did create that driver in the first place (I know what *they* are saying, but it's the same as saying that warez are provided for educational purposes only - everyone knows it is not true).<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#15 by "Dethstryk"
2000-08-06 14:59:52
dethstryk@damagegaming.com http://www.damagegaming.com/
<b>EvilAsh wrote in post #13:</b>
<quote>And people make it seem like Counterstrike is so damn original. PUHLEAZE. </quote>
It's been the first game to combine realism with fast and furious gameplay. The Rainbow Six series is all about realism, and that hurts it.

<quote>Truthfully I am tired of the whole realistic Mod scene in general.

You want realistic weaponry? Go to a firing range.</quote>
Some people actually want realistic games, and Counter-strike is proof of that. Don't like it? Go play Superheroes for Quake or something.

<quote>Where are the Quake RAllys' ,The PainKeeps and others that show incredible imagination?</quote>
I used to want to live in the Quake-era forever, but you have to move on. All of the really imaginitive things are now popping up in games themselves, because those awesome mod authors from the days gone past are making the games now!

<quote>The whole point of mods and companies releasing tools is for one to show of your imagination and develop something Different and original and Cause the developer of that said title..to GAsp And go .. Holy SHIT ,I never thought of doing that. </quote>
I really doubt game developers give these reasons for making their games mod'able. For the first place, it's for people to be able to modify the game to their liking (within limits). Second, it's to create variants of the game that people can really love. While developers might say "I never thought of doing that," even if they had, it probably wouldn't have been in the game in the first place.

<quote>How many REalistic Type mods and games are out now? </quote>
Yeah, but how many of those are <i>popular</i> to play online?

Hey, all I can say is that if you don't like the realistic mods or the mod scene in general, get out or do something about it.


--
Dethstryk
Damage Gaming
#16 by "Indy"
2000-08-06 15:01:34
indy@anybody.co.uk
<quote>I don't find Counterstrike original or entertaining. </quote>
People are bored with plain deathmatch.  We've been using the same skills since netquake.bat and it's just not as fun anymore.  Sure, team based mods like JailBreak are great, but still have a very large DM based component.

Counter Strike isn't just a different spin on team deathmatch, the skills you have to employ to be sucessful are considerably different, although obviously because it's an FPS the skills cross over.

Rainbow 6 / RS are great games, I used to play them on the LAN at work at lunch for months.  Counter Strike has more point and direction because of mission based objectives.  Rainbow Six is just Deathmatch Done Slowly.  Counter Strike is also more dynamic, it has a slightly faster pace and you sit out after dying for a shorter time (on average) than Rainbow Six.

The best is yet to come.  I await a "total war" game, with the massive senarios of Tribes, the tactical flexiblity of Counter Strike and the technical accuracy of Rainbow Six.

I don't know the current Gamespy stats on what game is played the most, but I do know it's Counterstrike by a considerable margin.  All those people can't be wrong!

Indy.
<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#17 by "Dethstryk"
2000-08-06 15:02:28
dethstryk@damagegaming.com http://www.damagegaming.com/
<b>PiRaMidA wrote in post #14:</b>
<quote>How hard would it be for ASUS to update their driver? Would not work, unless of course ASUS is against cheating, in which case I don't understand why they did create that driver in the first place (I know what *they* are saying, but it's the same as saying that warez are provided for educational purposes only - everyone knows it is not true).</quote>
Here's an idea, and I'll use Doom 3 as an example:

1) Load up Doom 3.
2) Start connecting to multiplayer server.
3) Like a WON verification server in Half-life, the game connects to a hacked driver database server to see if the drive you are currently using is a "cheating driver." This way it could be updated, and with every incarnation of a bad driver like this, it could be stopped.
4) If driver check is successful, game loads. Bad driver? No way buddy, you aren't playing.


--
Dethstryk
Damage Gaming
#18 by "legion88"
2000-08-06 15:15:58
legion88@yahoo.com
#10,
<quote>That's about non-existent, since cheaters obviously have no morals when it comes to other people's enjoyment and also are probably sad individuals in person. Cheaters are the people that wanted to be a bully in school, but were too much of a twerp to do it.
</quote>

All very true.  But let us not lose perspective here.  Lack of ethics is not limited to cheaters.  Go to a newsgroup like Voodoo3.  If you can find a reliable archive of old Voodoo3 newsgroup postings from last March to around August of 1999, then feel free to read up on the false rumors and accusations being posted up by individuals like John Reynolds (contractual writer for 3dfxgamers, not to be confused with contractual employee--according to him), and other misfits (some guy named "Grue" or whatever).

Go to HardOCP and read up on the recent little "strong arming" accusations against NVIDIA.  (Or visit Beyond3D and read up on Dave Barron's "commentary" on NVIDIA.) Ask them how the e-mail heated discussion on "logos" somehow changed into "all 3dfx content" and other such silliness.  Then go to the newsgroups or other sites and see how people wrongly believed that NVIDIA was trying to take down reviews of 3dfx hardware like the Voodoo5 5500.  

It all started by one of HardOCP's hosted sites not able to read the contract and agreed to give "exclusive...sponsorship" to NVIDIA.  (I assume that he had a reading comprehension problem with simple contracts and this was not part of some sort of "plan" from the beginning.)  Putting other people's logos is not an "exclusive...sponsorship".   For the sake of sensationalism, HardOCP believed that a heated discussion on "logos" was not enough.  So they changed it to mean "all 3dfx content" and this change in wording did serve the purpose of diverting people's attention to the actual agreement made with NVIDIA.

Many sites get an average about $US34 per 1000 "impressions" (hits to individual pages of a site, not actual clicks on the banner ads).  Sensationalizing a story can do wonders to a site's hits.

Sites like HardOCP provide the community a good service.  But people are willing to look past these sites' obvious ethical shortcomings so that they can continue to receive these services.

Cheaters are similar but slightly different.  They provide a "service" only to a very small minority; the majority do not get anything good from it.

I find it somewhat irritating that people are going to go after cheaters so harshly but do nothing about the people in the limelight manipulating the masses (or trying to manipulate the masses).  Obviously people are looking out for themselves.
#19 by "Lurks"
2000-08-06 15:20:35
lurks@planetcrap.com http://www.planetcrap.com
<b>#10</b> "Dethstryk" wrote...
<QUOTE>

Moral issues? That's about non-existent, since cheaters obviously have no morals when it comes to other people's enjoyment and also are probably sad individuals in person. Cheaters are the people that wanted to be a bully in school, but were too much of a twerp to do it.
</QUOTE>

Would you be willing to say "I agree that this game can read data from my system, the registry and any other information it sees fit and send that data to a central server" so that a game might adequately check for cheats?

What if that was just a competition mode?
<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#20 by "Lurks"
2000-08-06 15:23:05
lurks@planetcrap.com http://www.planetcrap.com
<b>#13</b> "EvilAsh" wrote...
<QUOTE>

I don't find Counterstrike original or entertaining.

PSS: After reading the first 6 posts I realized this thread was well..BORING. So I hope no one minds I take it in a different direction.
</QUOTE>

Firstly, I can't see any of us caring what you think about CS. Secondly, you can try take it in a different direction all you like. I wont be.

Why don't you just bugger off to another topic instead of trying to wreck this one?

<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#21 by "Dethstryk"
2000-08-06 15:26:42
dethstryk@damagegaming.com http://www.damagegaming.com/
<b>Lurks wrote in post #19:</b>
<quote>Would you be willing to say "I agree that this game can read data from my system, the registry and any other information it sees fit and send that data to a central server" so that a game might adequately check for cheats? </quote>
Yes.

Like I said in a previous post, if there was a disclaimer that was brought up (not in EULA format though) that said it would check your driver version and that's it, I would be more than happy. (Hell, I wouldn't even need that. That's to make all of the EULA freaks out there happy.)

<quote>What if that was just a competition mode? </quote>
That'd be an option, but I have a feeling if there was a choice between an "open" and "competition" mode of play, the latter would be played more.


--
Dethstryk
Damage Gaming
#22 by "Lurks"
2000-08-06 15:32:08
lurks@planetcrap.com http://www.planetcrap.com
<b>#16</b> "Indy" wrote...
<QUOTE>

People are bored with plain deathmatch. We've been using the same skills since netquake.bat and it's just not as fun anymore. Sure, team based mods like JailBreak are great, but still have a very large DM based component.
</QUOTE>

It's actually taken the successful element of Rocket Arena. Folks can only play some sort of hard-core by the seat of your pants game in short periods. The rest periods in Rocket Arena prolonged the experience and of course chatting to the other players in between rounds was half the fun.

CS takes that idea and then blends in the tactical element from the traditional realistic sneak/squad games.

It's quite astounding that the most popular online multiplayer action game is a mod. I mean it's a large seperate download. It's something you'd give more credit to the hard-core playing it than something which is attracting new players by the droves. This is the game that is vastely more popular than the professionally-developed Quake 3 and Unreal Tournament despite the incredible difference in development time and of course marketing and PR for the latter as well.

CS is a victory of an idea. It's nothing new and startling but it's what folks want to play now.

It's disturbing that this cheating, much worse than other games, are what the new players see first who are trying online gaming for the first time.

It makes you wonder what might be achieved had CS used the Quake 3 engine. Erm, having decent observer options and being able to record proper working demos would be a nice side-effect.

I understand why they used Half-Life though. It has real-world texture sets that suit this type of game. With any other engine you'd have to start from scratch and that'd be a whole hell of a lot of work.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#23 by "Lurks"
2000-08-06 15:38:13
lurks@planetcrap.com http://www.planetcrap.com
<b>#18</b> "legion88" wrote...
<QUOTE>

[blah blah 3dfx and nVidia and some guys did bad stuff snip blah blah]

All very true. But let us not lose perspective here. Lack of ethics is not limited to cheaters.
Cheaters are similar but slightly different. They provide a "service" only to a very small minority; the majority do not get anything good from it.
</quote>

I don't agree. I believe the majority of cheats were created specifically for that person to gain an advantage. It then gets leaked to others who that person also deems should be given an advantage and so on. They are never developed for cheaters as some kind of service.

<quote>
I find it somewhat irritating that people are going to go after cheaters so harshly but do nothing about the people in the limelight manipulating the masses (or trying to manipulate the masses). Obviously people are looking out for themselves.
</QUOTE>

Err, well clearly you have some agenda with some other issues to do with web site ethics or something. I can't see that as related in any way beyond the fact that both are 'bad', especially on the weak premise that somehow they're similar because both are 'manipulating the masses'.

Why stop there, lets kick off on religion and leave cheaters alone. Please.

Amazes me blatantly folks will try steer a topic :)<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#24 by "Lurks"
2000-08-06 15:45:45
lurks@planetcrap.com http://www.planetcrap.com
<b>#21</b> "Dethstryk" wrote...
<QUOTE>

Like I said in a previous post, if there was a disclaimer that was brought up (not in EULA format though) that said it would check your driver version and that's it, I would be more than happy. (Hell, I wouldn't even need that. That's to make all of the EULA freaks out there happy.)
</quote>

Oh I agree and I personally take that view point as well. I'm interested if they'd be much resistance to it though. I guess if players are given the choice... The problem is that gamers just want to get into servers right away. There's no place to tell them before they start that the software is going to send all these details, is that OK? Easy enough to build into the next crop of games I guess.

<quote>
I have a feeling if there was a choice between an "open" and "competition" mode of play, the latter would be played more.
</QUOTE>

Oh I agree. Just like pure mode on Quake 3. Because it allows people to perform legitimate modifications that enhance the game. However a competition mode should (rightly) restrict that and enforce a standardized game to a point.

Whether people play the latter more, isn't the issue. If cheating is rife in the former...

Let's use CS as an example. If there was a server mode which meant you joined CS and you couldn't use any custom models, skins, decals (because that new pldecal.wav system is STUPID), sniper scopes, sound effects or anything other than certified video drivers (say)... would people play that or would they go off and play regular CS where they can do those things but cheaters are infesting the game.

I can tell you now that they'll choose the former. They'll take the cheater-free system every time.

It's different from Quake 3. Quake 3 doesn't have a lot of cheaters on non-pure servers anyhow and the game doesn't lend itself to cheating the same way (seeing through walls isn't going to be as devastating to Quake 3 for example). So I don't think using that as an example quite fits here.

I believe that a restricted anti-cheating system would be used in preference, even for public non-competition games.



<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#25 by "Indy"
2000-08-06 15:49:01
indy@anybody.co.uk
<quote>I don't agree. I believe the majority of cheats were created specifically for that person to gain an advantage. It then gets leaked to others who that person also deems should be given an advantage and so on. They are never developed for cheaters as some kind of service. </quote>

Sorry to disagree Lurks, I don't believe that is the case though.  From what I have seen over various online games, specifically: QW, Q2, Q3, CS, Ultima, Everquest, Diablo - cheats are usually released to the public for respect and kudos.  Like there are warez release groups on the net there are cheating/game hacking groups too (not many but some).  These individuals and groups release newer versions with more cheat features, updates to get around developers cheat-fixes.

There is a "gaming underbelly"; the cheaters, the anti socials, the player killers, the grief players... and there are web sites and cheats to service them.

Very, very sad, but true.

Indy.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#26 by "legion88"
2000-08-06 15:52:58
legion88@yahoo.com
#23,
<quote>
Why stop there, lets kick off on religion and leave cheaters alone. Please.

</quote>

Well, let me just say I won't waste time correcting your misrepresentation of what I said except for one point:  I never stated, hinted, or suggested that cheaters should be left alone.  That is your imagination saying such drivel.

This is just more example of people like you only thinking about yourselves.  Hence, your obvious dislike for ASUS's current driver issue and cheaters.

More to the point, HardOCP tried to get two people at NVIDIA to resign.  You, on the other hand, are complaining about people cheating at games.  Somehow your issues do not seem too important in comparison to a web site trying to get two people fired.
#27 by "Tom Cleghorn"
2000-08-06 15:57:55
tc10@st-andrewsspam?tryit.ac.uk http://www.fisty.com/~tom
<quote>
More to the point, HardOCP tried to get two people at NVIDIA to resign. You, on the other hand, are complaining about people cheating at games. Somehow your issues do not seem too important in comparison to a web site trying to get two people fired.</quote>
Read the topic again. Now consider whether what you posted was relevant. Christ. It's one thing to post off-topic, but quite another to then claim that your off-topic post was more important than the topic.
#28 by "Lurks"
2000-08-06 16:01:14
lurks@planetcrap.com http://www.planetcrap.com
<b>#25</b> "Indy" wrote...
<QUOTE>
Sorry to disagree Lurks, I don't believe that is the case though. From what I have seen over various online games, specifically: QW, Q2, Q3, CS, Ultima, Everquest, Diablo - cheats are usually released to the public for respect and kudos.
</quote>

Oh they have been yes, and to claim not would be folly. I still maintain that the greatest motivation for cheating is a selfish one though. The desire to make themselves look good by performing well.

Even though ironically they'll be hated more than adored.

<quote>
There is a "gaming underbelly"; the cheaters, the anti socials, the player killers, the grief players... and there are web sites and cheats to service them.
</QUOTE>

I see what you're saying. But in fact there really aren't very many cheating sites out there. Those that there are have a small cross section of the cheats. CS Professionals, for example, has all of the files down. It's just not socially acceptable enough for those people to be put up with.

And long may it remain so!

I've also seen some cheats spread very very slowly as they were passed around a few 'l33t few' exclusively - rather than made public.
<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#29 by "Dethstryk"
2000-08-06 16:04:24
dethstryk@damagegaming.com http://www.damagegaming.com/
<b>Lurks wrote in post #22:</b>
<quote>It's disturbing that this cheating, much worse than other games, are what the new players see first who are trying online gaming for the first time. </quote>
Regarding the CS cheating, I think it's kind of funny. I have never once knowingly seen a cheat in action, and I have played Counter-strike almost everyday since around Beta 4.


--
Dethstryk
Damage Gaming
#30 by "Lurks"
2000-08-06 16:14:33
lurks@planetcrap.com http://www.planetcrap.com
<b>#26</b> "legion88" wrote...
<QUOTE>

#23,

Well, let me just say I won't waste time correcting your misrepresentation of what I said except for one point: I never stated, hinted, or suggested that cheaters should be left alone. That is your imagination saying such drivel.
</quote>

Actually you said "I find it somewhat irritating that people are going to go after cheaters so harshly". So it would appear the drivel is yours.

<quote>
This is just more example of people like you only thinking about yourselves. Hence, your obvious dislike for ASUS's current driver issue and cheaters.
</Quote>

That's fucking hilarious. I'm concerned about cheating, I'm not whining in a topic about cheating about the fact people are "going after cheaters so harshly" or trying to steer the subject onto something to do with a couple of web sites like you. I can't see a selfish motivation there, yours on the other hand would appear to be purely driven by it.

<quote>
More to the point, HardOCP tried to get two people at NVIDIA to resign. You, on the other hand, are complaining about people cheating at games. Somehow your issues do not seem too important in comparison to a web site trying to get two people fired.
</quote>

No that's *not* more to the point. I don't give a FUCK about it. I'm complaining about people cheating in games and organisations condoning this behavior. This is an important issue. It is not AS important as a billion things in the world such as the HIV epidemic in South Africa or the breakdown of peace negotiations in Israel. That doesn't stop us from talking about lesser things. Why just this morning I complained to my postman that the weather was too hot and my water supply was on the blink. I suppose I shouldn't have said that. I should have RANTED AT THE INJUSTICE THAT HARDOCP TRIED TO GET TWO PEOPLE TO RESIGN!

Why the hell should we railroad this subject onto your topic just because YOU DEEM it more important? What the hell does that have to do with us?

You're saying that *I'm* thinking about myself? Jesus you're on drugs!

If what you say is true, it's worthy of another topic on Planet Crap. It has nothing to do with this one and whether it is more IMPORTANT is not a decision for you to make on behalf of the rest of us.

Tool!<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#31 by "Lurks"
2000-08-06 16:19:27
lurks@planetcrap.com http://www.planetcrap.com
<b>#29</b> "Dethstryk" wrote...
<QUOTE>

Regarding the CS cheating, I think it's kind of funny. I have never once knowingly seen a cheat in action, and I have played Counter-strike almost everyday since around Beta 4.
</QUOTE>

Depends what circles you move in. I play Counter-Strike at a competitive level in a clan. I also haven't seen very many other clans cheat whome we have played. It's viewed in the harshest possible light here in the UK.

That's because to some degree the players are accountable, their clans have reputations.

However on PUBLIC servers - oh my lord, I've send plenty of cheating. Oh yes indeed, plenty.

CS was really just an example in this topic, one that seemed poignant given it has the most cheating and is the most popular game.

To inject a bit more debate here, I will also assert my opinion that cheating appears more socially acceptable in Sweden and Germany than it is in the UK and in the US. There, I've said it :)
<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#32 by "RahvinTaka"
2000-08-06 16:20:21
donaldp@mad.scientist.com
<b>#17</b> "Dethstryk" wrote...
<QUOTE>

<B>PiRaMidA wrote in post #14:</B>

<quote>How hard would it be for ASUS to update their driver? Would not work, unless of course ASUS is against cheating, in which case I don't understand why they did create that driver in the first place (I know what *they* are saying, but it's the same as saying that warez are provided for educational purposes only - everyone knows it is not true).</quote>
Here's an idea, and I'll use Doom 3 as an example:

1) Load up Doom 3.
2) Start connecting to multiplayer server.
3) Like a WON verification server in Half-life, the game connects to a hacked driver database server to see if the drive you are currently using is a "cheating driver." This way it could be updated, and with every incarnation of a bad driver like this, it could be stopped.
4) If driver check is successful, game loads. Bad driver? No way buddy, you aren't playing.
</QUOTE>

That won't stop it - there is already proxy driver's out there (I actually use them for legitimate purposes - tracing OGL calls) which report different info. Place them in right place and bam - funky drivers again<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#33 by "RahvinTaka"
2000-08-06 16:29:34
donaldp@mad.scientist.com
<b>#22</b> "Lurks" wrote...
<QUOTE>It's quite astounding that the most popular online multiplayer action game is a
mod. I mean it's a large seperate download. It's something you'd give more
credit to the hard-core playing it than something which is attracting new
players by the droves. This is the game that is vastely more popular than the
professionally-developed Quake 3 and Unreal Tournament despite the incredible
difference in development time and of course marketing and PR for the latter as
well.
</QUOTE>

Looking at my local servers the choices you got to play are

~10 TFC servers
1 q3f server
30 CS servers
8 UT servers
2 Q1 TF servers
3 Q1 * servers
5 Q2 * servers


The reason people play CS is because they really don't have a lot of choice. The Q1 games are ran by individuals not ISPs and thus usually garner higher pings. Q2, TFC and CS are all run by ISPs and are really the only way to play decent games for modem users. UT servers are run both by individuals and ISPs and get okay results but none ever has any mods running.

So if you are lucky you may be able tyo play something other than CS with a decent ping but in most cases you take a serious hit pingwise doing so. As ISPs are also moving other games that aren't popular (q*) to lower end machines you are tending to get degraded performance of server combined aswell.
<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#34 by "RahvinTaka"
2000-08-06 16:33:17
donaldp@mad.scientist.com
<b>#29</b> "Dethstryk" wrote...
<QUOTE>

<B>Lurks wrote in post #22:</B>

<quote>It's disturbing that this cheating, much worse than other games, are what the new players see first who are trying online gaming for the first time. </quote>
Regarding the CS cheating, I think it's kind of funny. I have never once knowingly seen a cheat in action, and I have played Counter-strike almost everyday since around Beta 4.</QUOTE>

I have regularly. I have even had people boasting about it on the server. *sigh*

Strangely enough I also ran across a bunch of exploits for q3 recently. Basicallly it was players getting around cheat protected cvars and doing things like 3rd person view. Not harmful as such - but it has trhe potential to be :/<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#35 by "Dethstryk"
2000-08-06 16:58:47
dethstryk@damagegaming.com http://www.damagegaming.com/
<b>Lurks wrote in post #31:</b>
<quote>However on PUBLIC servers - oh my lord, I've send plenty of cheating. Oh yes indeed, plenty. </quote>
That explains it then, I guess. I play mostly on Domain of Pain and some of the other clan servers.


--
Dethstryk
Damage Gaming
#36 by "EvilAsh"
2000-08-06 17:09:31
evilash@eviladam.com http://www.eviladam.com
Because there is an objective and that makes it different and oh so spicey and orginal?

Oh please.  

Lets break it down.

One team Hunts ,the other defends.
You win...your team gets more money and then they can buy better weapons..
And now you switch.

Wow.. Its so GroundBreaking !

I Am sorry if my standards for creativity are a little higher then most.

Now someone said that because most of the GOOD Mod groups have left to work on retail projects.. and that I Can't expect that level of originality any more.

OR have the standards lowered to the point that anyone can slap in some realistic gun models. about 6 different player models and skins.. And like 6 maps. And boom everyone gets all excited because the mod has an Outlawed gun you can't buy so your excited because you get to fire that gun.

Ah. I guess people just have lower standards these days.

oh well.
#37 by "Lurks"
2000-08-06 17:20:24
lurks@planetcrap.com http://www.planetcrap.com
<b>#33</b> "RahvinTaka" wrote...
<QUOTE>

So if you are lucky you may be able tyo play something other than CS with a decent ping but in most cases you take a serious hit pingwise doing so. As ISPs are also moving other games that aren't popular (q*) to lower end machines you are tending to get degraded performance of server combined aswell.
</QUOTE>

That may very well be the case where you are. It is not the case in the UK. That's because every ISP has high quality peering at one central point (called LINX) and we have several superb free gaming service providers. Wireplay, Barrysworld, Jolt, Games Inferno etc etc. There's a bucket of servers available for all other games.

As usual GSPs operate a straight supply and demand policy. If a game is popular, it gets more servers. We have no problem finding Q3 and UT servers here, hosted at the same locations and same hardware as the CS servers.

My clan plays CS, UT and Q3. It's just that CS is far more popular and it has nothing to do with how many game servers their are.
<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#38 by "Lurks"
2000-08-06 17:23:34
lurks@planetcrap.com http://www.planetcrap.com
<b>#35</b> "Dethstryk" wrote...
<QUOTE>

That explains it then, I guess. I play mostly on Domain of Pain and some of the other clan servers.
</QUOTE>

If a clan is found cheating, they'd automatically get banned from all leagues here. They'd never get anyone to agree to playing a friendly with them and in essence every reason for having a clan would evaporate.

So I guess we should be glad the scene polices itself in such a way. However what it means is that clan members alias up and go on a rampage on public servers.

CS is a game that's rapidly wrecked by arseholes anyhow. So you really need someone with RCON on the server. TKers being a common one but annoying these days, right wing scandinavians spraying swastikas all over your server... sigh.
<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#39 by "RahvinTaka"
2000-08-06 17:27:03
donaldp@mad.scientist.com
<b>#36</b> "EvilAsh" wrote...
<QUOTE>Now someone said that because most of the GOOD Mod groups have left to work on retail projects.. and that I Can't expect that level of originality any more.

OR have the standards lowered to the point that anyone can slap in some realistic gun models. about 6 different player models and skins.. And like 6 maps. And boom everyone gets all excited because the mod has an Outlawed gun you can't buy so your excited because you get to fire that gun.

Ah. I guess people just have lower standards these days.
</QUOTE>

I don't think that creativity has died as such. There is always a bunch of creative stuff happening - it is just that it either never gets finished or never gets played by "mainstrem" gameplayer and hence never gets too many public servers.

I don't know if these mods survived or even got off the ground but last time I went looking this is what I found.

* Team game where you use scientists to help you invent technology and get better stuff as round goes on. You can also steal tech from other side to help build your stuff.

* Wierd Science mod where you have a number of "blocks" that you can combine together to create stuff. ie join the <i>enemy sensor + wings + explosive</i> and you get a homing flying bomb, join the health pack, the water sprouter + friendly sensor and you get a water spout that shoots at you and when it hits you get health :P

* A mod very like the way WoT was supposed to be (build a base then go attack others)

* Pogo mod - where you jump on pogo sticks and the aim of the game is to squash your enemies by biouncing on them :P

* PacMan/Ghostbuster mod. When you die you become a ghost and enemy has to pull out a gizmo to capture you or else you can run back to base and regen :P

etc etc etc

They are out there (or at least they were :P) it is just as gaming becomes more mainstream we have to deal with a greater proportion of unwashed masses who don't want odd ball/creative games. There will always be wierd stuff it will just never be such a great influence until we have another renaisance and creativity is actually considered a good thing by general populance.
<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#40 by "Steve Bauman"
2000-08-06 17:37:17
sbauman@adelphia.net http://homepages.together.net/~sbauman/
<b>#36</b> "EvilAsh" wrote...
<QUOTE>
Ah. I guess people just have lower standards these days.
</QUOTE>
Maybe, but people who think their opinion is the only "right" one show higher levels of arrogance these days...

---
"My life is a patio of fun."<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#41 by "EvilAsh"
2000-08-06 17:48:55
evilash@eviladam.com http://www.eviladam.com
Takes one to know one Steve. :)
#42 by "Vengeance[CoD]"
2000-08-06 17:58:16
rhiggi@home.com
<b>#39</b> "RahvinTaka" wrote...
<QUOTE>
They are out there (or at least they were :P) it is just as gaming becomes more mainstream we have to deal with a greater proportion of unwashed masses who don't want odd ball/creative games. There will always be wierd stuff it will just never be such a great influence until we have another renaisance and creativity is actually considered a good thing by general populance.
</QUOTE>

I agree to point, but I think you're both forgetting about bandwith and newbies.
I don't have a problem downloading the latest CS because I'm on cable.  If I were on a 56k again (shudder), It would take me just shy of never.  Then I've got a choice, I can play the game everyone else is playing with tons of servers and a good ping or I can spend hours downloading another mod that sounds interesting but I might not like, and so few people are playing it anyway, can it be that good?
I think thats what prevents most people (mainstream) from trying out new mods.  If the mod isn't well done and easy to install its just not worth me waiting hours for it to download.  Games and mods keep getting bigger and bigger but the bandwith isn't increasing as fast.

The only way you'll get a large number of people to try a good proportion of the "fringe" mods is too make it a quick download <b>OR</b> a decently sized single/multi player mod.  Then if I can't find one of the 3 servers running the mod, I can at least try it on my own, find out its great and start trying to get more people to run it.

V

   <I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#43 by "superion"
2000-08-06 18:09:22
the cs cheats really exploit the game mechanics. sure i'd be pissed if someone had a autoaim railgun in q3, but the awp in cs kills in one hit, and goes through walls. you could be hiding in the dumpster on a map like an aborted fetus and, using negative wall/big red x models, someone could shoot you without even seeing you.

i remember that shitty q2 autoaim bot, it was nasty yes, but these cs hacks just rip apart the game structure. theres a big red x model for the vip, which you can see through all other brushes. widely available too, every 30 deep 14 year old @home cs clan, gathering together in sweaty enterthegame irc channels are trading the hacks back and forth, keeping their clans stocked. and no matter what ming says, theres really no way to counter alot of these hacks without changing engines.

and about the everquest cheats... they're on a whole new level. the one i saw you need 2 nics in a linux box to filter packets. this idiot i used to play eq with has it setup, he's basically like a god running around the little eq world. verants too busy making addon packs to fix it i guess. sad :(
#44 by "superion"
2000-08-06 18:14:03
as an afterthought, i stopped playing cs like a week after 6.5 came out and we found out alot of the cheats werent fixed. the servers i wanted to play on (50~ ping, x2 [i was usually playing with a friend over shared dsl, so we evened out to like 100~ a peice]) were full of cheaters.

i'll check out b7 though.
#45 by "Dethstryk"
2000-08-06 18:19:34
dethstryk@damagegaming.com http://www.damagegaming.com/
<b>EvilAsh wrote in post #36:</b>
<quote>OR have the standards lowered to the point that anyone can slap in some realistic gun models. about 6 different player models and skins.. And like 6 maps.</quote>
In case you didn't know, there have always been shitty mods. If you choose not to look at a certain one because you don't think it isn't original, then that's your fault. But guess what, Quake had some crap come out for it, too! (GASP!)


--
Dethstryk
Damage Gaming
#46 by "Dethstryk"
2000-08-06 18:21:03
dethstryk@damagegaming.com http://www.damagegaming.com/
<b>Lurks wrote in post #38:</b>
<quote>CS is a game that's rapidly wrecked by arseholes anyhow. So you really need someone with RCON on the server. TKers being a common one but annoying these days, right wing scandinavians spraying swastikas all over your server... sigh. </quote>
I just have a problem with people who will call me camper after I kill them in the same spot three or four times. Hello? What did you expect? Come get me.


--
Dethstryk
Damage Gaming
#47 by "Valeyard"
2000-08-06 18:34:56
valeyard@ck3.net http://www.ck3.net
As a founder and leader of one of the top 3 CS teams in the world, here's my take on the situation:

CS has climbed it's way to the top of the pile, and is now entering an era where the cheating MUST be fixed.  Teams are now sponsored by coporations and the number of leagues and tournaments are increasing.

As with any "big" game, the fairest way to test the skills of a team is in a LAN environment, not only to ensure a balanced playing field based on network performance, but to ensure that people aren't cheating.  Those LAN events are coming, with bigger prizes and more coverage.  At the last CPL event, we witnessed so much cheating BEFORE the main CS tournament that we had to have a meeting to write specific rules...and then had to have people OBSERVE the teams to ensure they were following them!  If people are willing to openly cheat to that extreme at a LAN event, what are they doing at home???

The CS team, while putting out a great game, have NOT been actively working to ensure that the game is ready for that sort of play.  In the past year they've implemented precious few commands and fixes specifically designed to improve the gameplay for competitive teams.  Gooseman works on whatever he wants to work on, and that's his right...but at some point he's going to have to address the needs of the competitive teams or this is all going to fall apart.

We've worked out a proposal to help "fix" league play; a minor change to the scoring system that will eliminate some of the problems and exploitations we've been seeing.  This new system requires NO CHANGES to the code.  Why?  Because complaints and requests from the top clans and leagues often go unanswered or ignored.

No matter what happens, there will always be cheaters.  We know that.  We accept that.  As a software engineer, I'm accutely aware of how simple some of our requests SHOULD be.  The only explanation I've been able to come up with is that the team simply isn't interested in improving the game for competitive play.  Sure, they'll fix the "big" bugs in an attempt to keep people playing the game on public servers, but competitive team play simply isn't a concern for them.

I used to LOVE Counter-strike.  I formed a team of great players and we worked our asses off.  We got deeper into the game than almost any other team; working out strategies, timing and positioning on over-head printouts of the maps.  We've won more matches than ANY other CS clan has played, and lost very few.  We worked hard to build a team of mature, skilled players who loved the teamwork and the game.  Through our hard work and strict ethics we've managed to climb to the very top of the CS Clan scene, and we've managed to earn the respect of the other top teams in the process - and they've earned ours.

I don't LOVE the game anymore, I won't list all my complaints, but there are quite a few.  I used to come home from work and play CS until the wee hours of the morning almost EVERY night.  Now the ONLY time I play is in practices and matches...public server play annoys and bores me.  Why?  Because if the other guys ISN'T cheating, then he's accusing YOU of cheating.

I'm sticking with it out of respect to my teammates, the other "great" teams we get to play, and a blind hope that things will eventually improve.  If they don't, then CK3 will be moving on to another game, and without sounding immodest, so will many of the other top clans.

It's my most sincere hope that Beta 7 (due VERY soon) will fix many of the issues we're seeing, and add some simple functionality for competitive play.  If it doesn't, then I'll ask for the 20th time: Why aren't you letting the TOP teams test these releases before you kick them out???

The fact is that within 2 days of every release, we've got a list of things that could have been fixed VERY easily.  Instead of have TEAMS test these new releases, the CS team has instead collected a few "insiders" to test.  Some of these people are TERRIBLE players and they're just there because they want to play it before everyone else.  I'm so sick of these little kids who try to be "cool" by association.  "Look, I'm a beta tester and I run a fan site...I must be m4d l33t!"

Sorry, I got way off track there.  But I honestly feel that the quality of testing is contributing to the number of bugs and exploitations that we all see shortly after the latest release.

The other part of this comes down to ethics.  A few short weeks ago, we played another team in a non-league match.  We saw some suspicious activity so we decided that we'd have everyone on both teams take screenshots and send them to the other team's leader.  We only received screenshots from 3 members of the other team...and what we saw SHOCKED us.  Not only had some of the members of that team been cheating, but they actually sent us screenshots THAT PROVED IT!!  They honestly had no idea what they were doing was cheating and couldn't understand why most leagues have outlawed it.  (For those who are interested, they were using custom models and skins - no voodoo dolls, but most of the models were bright neon and oddly shaped).  They still lost the match, I believe the second half score was around 22-5 or similar.

I hope the CS team, with Valve's help, will work to resolve most of these problems quickly...because after more than a year, some of us aren't very interested in continuing.

-Valeyard
<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#48 by "Valeyard"
2000-08-06 18:37:45
valeyard@ck3.net http://www.ck3.net
Sorry, that was much longer than I intended...for those of you who didnt' bother reading it:

Cheating sucks, I hope they fix the problems or CK3 might be moving on soon.

-Valeyard<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#49 by "asspennies"
2000-08-06 18:46:24
asspennies@coredump.org http://www.coredump.org
<b>#36</b> "EvilAsh" wrote...
<QUOTE>

Ah. I guess people just have lower standards these days.

oh well. </QUOTE>

What is it you have against Counter-Strike?  People aren't allowed to like what they want to like?

You don't like Counter-Strike.  Fine.  That's great!  There are plenty of other games to play.  It really serves no purpose to be railing against a game that many other people like to play.  Are you expecting to convince someone, or change the way people see things?

"Thank you EvilAsh, I used to like Counter-Strike, but now, you've shown me the way.  I will never play it again.  Thank you, thank you."

There.  You heard the words.  Now maybe you go play something else and leave the rest of us who like it to enjoy our lower standards.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#50 by "G-Man"
2000-08-06 19:12:07
jonmars@shiftlock.org http://www.shiftlock.org
I agree with EvilAsh to a degree. But I think that the real reason that we aren't seeing as much innovation in user modifications is because currently is simply isn't that easy to divorce current engines from their FPS roots.

I mean right now I doubt if any FPS engine could be modified (without access to the engine source) to create a SimCity style game, a fishing game, a Diablo clone, or a MMORPG. Most of the limitations are UI and networking based. But hopefully this will change soon with Unreal 2, Half-Life's upcoming revisions, and Lithtech.

 - [g.man]<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
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