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Sports lead children directly to mystical flim flam!
October 18th 2005, 08:57 MSD by McBain Sports are the evil that make kids strap bombs to their chests to become martyrs! |
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Topic: Sports lead children directly to mystical flim flam!
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Is IRC not working for anyone else, right now? Now I'm a half-million dollars in the hole, and I'm sucking dicks in the bathroom at the Olive Garden. Thanks a lot, Nintendo!
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nevermind, it works now. Now I'm a half-million dollars in the hole, and I'm sucking dicks in the bathroom at the Olive Garden. Thanks a lot, Nintendo!
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All morality is arbitrary. People are more likely to follow it if they believe an arbitrary morality is decried from greater power rather than other flawed humans. What McBain is advocating would lead to anarchy. Perceived consequeces (whether real or not) do keep people in line. Sure religion is a scam, so what, many people need it to function and there's never been a society without it. You're conflating terms, which is why I generally like to differentiate "ethics" (human constructs of right and wrong) and "morals" (something decided by some higher power). Ethics are simply not arbitrary. They are derived from thoughtful, reasoned debate. While they are never going to be 100% perfect, they are accepted as being the result of thoughtful human beings doing the best they can. The best ones will rise to the top, like the best scientific work does. Lawyers, Doctors, etc... have spent years deriving ethical structures for their work that can impact peoples lives in life or death situations. "Morals" are people saying "this is wrong because God says it is". There is no argument with that. No debate. Nothing. I see no reason that people can't function in society perfectly fine without the latter. Kid: Because you went to the bathroom on mommy's dishes?
Willie: What the fuck? No! |
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You take two years and scream at Christians and Jews about how stupid they are for believing in God and see how many you get to give up religion totally. Now of course, if you yelled at Jews that Judaism is stupid, you would be called anti-semitic and here in Canada you could be charged with a hate crime. |
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And his way of doing it wasn't Using a forceful argument and allowing people to still make their own decision it was just being a know-it-all prick. Being a jerk still means people can make their own decisions. He's not advocating people with different points of view be silenced or rounded up. Kid: Because you went to the bathroom on mommy's dishes?
Willie: What the fuck? No! |
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Nope, he's just being an asshole. Game Developers: Don't forget the zombie monkeys.
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Pi will still be pi, even if the universe doesn't exist. Abstractions are cool like that. The need for an ever-fresh selection of euphemisms about dirty subjects has long served as an impressive engine of linguistic invention.
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Bloody Stupid Johnson disagrees with you. "When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty, I read them openly. When I became a man, I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up."
-C.S. Lewis |
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Here's the long form. The need for an ever-fresh selection of euphemisms about dirty subjects has long served as an impressive engine of linguistic invention.
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Pi will still be pi, even if the universe doesn't exist. Abstractions are cool like that. For a stoner, you have a very limited imagination. Without me, Internet would never have had sex with the DS. -m0nty
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Being a jerk still means people can make their own decisions. He's not advocating people with different points of view be silenced or rounded up. What I'm saying still stands, being nice to people and presenting the case in a calm way will convert more than calling them stupid. I think the problem here is you're defending how you would do it, which is a rational and thoughtful argument. I'm disagreeing with how he is doing it which is nothing like what you describe. Bloody Stupid Johnson disagrees with you. ? Actually, the liberalism of the media - as a general thing - IS a major fallacy. What the media is, is a whore. -LP
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For a stoner, you have a very limited imagination. Funny. I thought an over-active imagination is what started this whole tangent. The need for an ever-fresh selection of euphemisms about dirty subjects has long served as an impressive engine of linguistic invention.
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Bloody Stupid Johnson disagrees with you. ? It's a Terry Pratchett reference. And I don't know if there's still numbers and pi and stuff if there's no universe. I'm pretty sure it doesn't matter though. MP3 Of The Week: Smash Mouth - Walkin' On The Sun.mp3 (?)
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Smash Mouth? For shame dum. Now I'm a half-million dollars in the hole, and I'm sucking dicks in the bathroom at the Olive Garden. Thanks a lot, Nintendo!
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I make no apologies! MP3 Of The Week: Smash Mouth - Walkin' On The Sun.mp3 (?)
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Pi will still be pi, even if the universe doesn't exist. Abstractions are cool like that. no, with no universe, you have an empty void. No circles. All equations equal zero. Which is why I offered that you would have math, but it'd be pretty useless. Unless you were getting graded. "Testiculos habet et bene pendentes" — "He has testicles, and they dangle nicely."
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I mean, you'd think a guy that sings the praises of a drug that can knock you out for a week would grasp the concept of a great big pile of nothing. "Testiculos habet et bene pendentes" — "He has testicles, and they dangle nicely."
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Smash Mouth? For shame dum. It's the MP3 of the Week, not the Good MP3 of the Week. Without me, Internet would never have had sex with the DS. -m0nty
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So you're saying if there is no universe that all equations equal zero? If you build a different universe pi will magically be some other number? You are wrong. Pi will still be pi. It's just that nobody will care. Abstractions exist without instances. Does the number 9723498723450234789523908523904859023589058 not exist until someone types it, or someone adds that high? Do you refuse to do math involving imaginary numbers because they don't "really" exist? The need for an ever-fresh selection of euphemisms about dirty subjects has long served as an impressive engine of linguistic invention.
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You are wrong. Actually, LP, what you are is arguing with bago. Which is like being wrong except that you're right, but it doesn't matter. Without me, Internet would never have had sex with the DS. -m0nty
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"ethics" (human constructs of right and wrong) Just because there's consensus doesn't mean it isn't arbitrary. There is no logic to be debated as to why killing another person is "bad" or why we make allowances for it in certain situations such as war or self defence. |
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It's the MP3 of the Week, not the Good MP3 of the Week. It's good EVERY week so I have to conclude you're naught but a dirty knowlessman. Good MP3 Of The Week: Smash Mouth - Walkin' On The Sun.mp3 (?)
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Again I get the feeling that what people read is that McBain wants pure cold logic with no.. emotions?, but when I read his posts they tend to read that he desires a world where, say the debate for and against capital punishment is done without BEcause G0ds sAYS teh s0!!11 religious-based "arguments". "O Avô vem salvar"
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Hey that's a pretty good song Dum. Wow that's like the first time you've managed to pick a song that isn't crap, cool (though, granted, it's been a while since I last checked them out). "O Avô vem salvar"
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#403 McBain I see no reason that people can't function in society perfectly fine without the latter. I think the problem you come down to is that in repeated discussions about this, you take an all or nothing stand on religion. Your thought is that Christianity is nonsense and should be done away with because you see it as hurting society. By saying that, you are insinuating that all religious people are unreasonable and illogical, and that Christianity and logic can't exist at the same time. The two are not mutually exclusive. I'm married to a Christian, and she's plenty reasonable and logical. She believes in a woman's right to choose and national health care and that Terry Schiavo shouldn't have been kept alive and that the death penalty is ridiculous when also claiming we shouldn't kill babies. She thinks intelligent design belongs in churches and evolution belongs in schools because evolution can be proven through simple scientific observation. She voted for Kerry. Just because she believes in God doesn't mean she can't also be logical. Christians aren't automatically broken in terms of the ability to think logically simply because they believe in God. Just because you always hear the ones that are illogical and unreasonable doesn't somehow make them the majority. In the same way, just because they show one murder on the news at night doesn't mean you need to go buy a gun and a $30,000 alarm system and a doberman and dig a trench around your yard to fill with water and alligators. Come out of the house, man. Let's have a real conversation about this. According to exit polls, 21% of Evangelical Christians who voted didn't vote for Bush. 48% of Catholics who voted didn't vote for Bush. 35% of Christians who attend church more than once a week didn't vote for Bush. 22% of voters who thought abortion should be outlawed in all cases didn't vote for Bush. There's even a group that's made up of (gasp!) Liberal Christians. I can't emphasize this enough. Christianity isn't the problem. People who use Christianity as the fog to mask their real intentions are. Instead of trying to convert people from Christian to atheist, why not try to convert them from Evangelical Christian to Liberal Christian? Saying "God is a fallacy, and you're WRONG! Nyah nyah!" doesn't quite have the same ring as "Well, when you think about it, Jesus was very liberal in his teachings. Perhaps we should converse about some important Biblical passages that prove this." |
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So you're saying if there is no universe that all equations equal zero? If you build a different universe pi will magically be some other number? You are wrong. Pi will still be pi. It's just that nobody will care. Abstractions exist without instances. nothing means nothing No pi. no circle. no cake. no drugs. no light. no dark. no concept. nothing is NOTHING. NOTHING exists because it is NOTHING. If something existed, it would no longer be nothing, it would be something. So, Pi is not pi in nothing, because that would be something. It has nothing to do with people. Or abstracts. Abstracts still require existence. "Testiculos habet et bene pendentes" — "He has testicles, and they dangle nicely."
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Nihlist. |
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your mama didn't think so last night. "Testiculos habet et bene pendentes" — "He has testicles, and they dangle nicely."
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This is of course, a stupid argument, but for what it's worth I agree with LP. No universe: no math, no physics, no time, no pi, no truth, no causality, no nothing. Different universe: Different rules. Everything we know, everything we can measure, can deduce, can calculate, is based on the universe working a certain way. And even a lot of that breaks down under extreme circumstances (ultra high gravity, ultra high speed, ultra high energy levels, ultra small scales, etc). "rules" only exist within a context. Change the context, the rules change, even fundamental ones. |
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You DID read that wikipedia link, didn't you? The need for an ever-fresh selection of euphemisms about dirty subjects has long served as an impressive engine of linguistic invention.
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So you're saying if there is no universe that all equations equal zero? If you build a different universe pi will magically be some other number? You are wrong. Pi will still be pi. It's just that nobody will care. Abstractions exist without instances. Does the number 9723498723450234789523908523904859023589058 not exist until someone types it, or someone adds that high? Do you refuse to do math involving imaginary numbers because they don't "really" exist? Maybe that is what he's saying, what I'm going to say is that anything outside of this universe is inherently unknowable at this juncture. Logic, math, physics, etc are all colloquial to the universe. This is why it's never going to be possible to prove that God doesn't exist. By the logic of this universe, this universe had to be created somehow. None of the origin of the universe theories really solve this problem, unless you believe that the universe expands and contracts cyclically, and even then, by the logic of this universe that had to begin somewhere. But who knows, maybe one day our offspring will get out of this pathetic universe. If you ask me, she's the misogynist.
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You are such an asshole, hugin. If you ask me, she's the misogynist.
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Shadarr #383 In what way is worker-run factories not communist? Are the factories owned by the state? |
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You DID read that wikipedia link, didn't you? yes. Which universe did your page exist in? "Testiculos habet et bene pendentes" — "He has testicles, and they dangle nicely."
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Christ, all you supar dupar smart people and nobody's going down to root causes. It's suffering, avoidance of suffering, and our own physical nature. First off, this stuff about 'ethics' being superior to 'morality' because it's a bunch of nice people being all reasonable and everything is silly. Ethics and morality both come from the same place... here's an easy example. Incest. Births through incest create genetic mutations that ultimately destroy any culture that engages in it too much. Ethically, it ultimately undermines the group that is struggling so hard to stay alive in a hostile world, and has the potential to create far more suffering than is worth the (eww) potential pleasure, so it should be stopped. Practically, we're a curious creature, so the people who have seen the effects must warn against it and hand it down for future generations. The new generations, not knowing first hand, have to kind of take their word for it or rebel. It's just not possible to get through to most people by expounding on the sensible reasons behind why we shouldn't do certain things, due to a) time constraints, b) inconsistent intellectual prowess, etc., so nice reasonable ethical debates really don't work to hand down this knowledge. We have a 'collective' social structure that, so the way to enforce the taboo is ultimately through peer pressure, shame, and verbal communication. Create avoidance by generating fear of ostracism, or marginalization. Know what those 'handed down' , seemingly arbitrary rules and strictures, derived from experience, enforced by shame and ostracism are? Yes... morals. Different side of the same coin. That's why Leviticus is 'moral stricture' as well as a damn good survival guide on how to avoid getting painful, fatal parasites from food (the cloven hoof is unclean - trichinosis - of the sea is clean - fish have less parasites - etc.). Add to that the very structure of our perception... we're hard-wired to make quick, complete decisions on small amounts of data. Short, blatant example; if a big furry thing with spots ate your friend, then what would you do if a big, furry thing with stripes approached? Pure logic waits for evidence and 2+2=4 before taking action; human instinct sees 2, then gets the fuck into a tree. Shapes that may slightly resemble that furry thing through a tangle of bushes fire off the same reaction; the ones that didn't recognize the patterns were food long ago. That sort of low-level mating of perception and conclusion is why visual teasers work so well on us; our brains want to fill in the gaps and have something to work with. That sort of 'let's go with something actionable now' thinking, as well as our communal nature, is why stupid morals have stuck around for so long. None of those morals is completely arbitrary; they all come from a seed of sense or experience somewhere. Often, they're adopted on while still incomplete, only halfway through the scientific method of experimentation and observation, so they have all sorts of weird exceptions. Women covering themselves in Islam? Who knows, maybe it was originally just so women's evolutionary potential wasn't obscured by all of them having shitty skin. Maybe it was also a female custom as well, with the whole 'play hard to get' combined with 'stay as pretty as you can and you'll get a better man.' We'll never know; now we're stuck with a culture that says it with moral imperative and public shame/pressure, because the original reasons are lost to antiquity. McBain, I'm with you in theory, but honestly, the type of rational intellectual discourse that you think would improve everything just doesn't scale. We're by and large a far more primal, emotional beings, and the dismissiveness of a snort and averted gaze go a lot further than drawing a diagram on the dirt with a stick. PS, yeah, yeah I'm a pseudo-scientific hippy. So shoot me. ----- scroll end here ----- I used to be 'with it', but then they changed what 'it' was. Now, what I'm with isn't 'it', and what's 'it' seems weird and scary to me.
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Woo hoo hoo! I'm the new McGrew! I used to be 'with it', but then they changed what 'it' was. Now, what I'm with isn't 'it', and what's 'it' seems weird and scary to me.
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Also, I absolutely despise scientific 'mating theory' stuff, and I used a very crude shorthand version as a way to get the point made. There are far more elegant examples, I'm sure, but I was writing long enough as it is. Nighty night! I used to be 'with it', but then they changed what 'it' was. Now, what I'm with isn't 'it', and what's 'it' seems weird and scary to me.
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Any universe you create is still going to have the ratio of a circle's circumfrence to its radius as pi. It doesn't matter how many elements there are, what forces of nature there are, nor the speed of light. Pi will be pi, and it will be tasty. Of course in this universe, the wikipedia notes that: A single "correct" definition of nothing could be considered impossible, since "right" and "wrong" do not fit within the confines of nothing. You said math might exist outside of nothing, and pi is a mathematical ratio. You're not even agreeing with yourself. However as a conciliatory gesture, I give you a big slice of nothing pie. The need for an ever-fresh selection of euphemisms about dirty subjects has long served as an impressive engine of linguistic invention.
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I said all equations would equal zero. That is not in fact, PI. Pi is a specific number, in a another universe, it wouldn't be pi, it'd be pi+1. I also said an argument COULD BE MADE for it, not that it was so. I'm agreeing with myself, you just can't read. Your problem here, I'm shocked to say, is you're being too literal. And kinda stupid. Plus, I don't think you really grasp the whole No Universe concept at all. Which I must say, shocks me. So I'm no longer speaking to you. "Testiculos habet et bene pendentes" — "He has testicles, and they dangle nicely."
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Did you at least enjoy the pie? The need for an ever-fresh selection of euphemisms about dirty subjects has long served as an impressive engine of linguistic invention.
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#416 LPMiller no, with no universe, you have an empty void. No circles. All equations equal zero. Which is why I offered that you would have math, but it'd be pretty useless. Unless you were getting graded. Your ignorance is showing. Go read Godel Escher Bach or something, quick! #425 Jibble Christians aren't automatically broken in terms of the ability to think logically simply because they believe in God. Your wife is just an idiot then because she supports institutions (via attendance/being a constituent and financially) that endorse practices you claim she opposes. All because she likes the "community" or frou frou rituals or whatever it is that attracts her to her particular church. #426 LPMiller What is in the "set of all things that aren't in this set?" #439 LPMiller I said all equations would equal zero. That is not in fact, PI. Pi is a specific number, in a another universe, it wouldn't be pi, it'd be pi+1. I also said an argument COULD BE MADE for it, not that it was so. I'm agreeing with myself, you just can't read. Man, you really are obtuse. Does the set of all possible values of pi exist? How about the set of all things which do not exist? The set of all sets? The set of all sets that aren't in the set of all sets? etc etc recursion paradox etc. Your concept of the universe is at a sixth grade level. |
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We're not talking about the universe, we're talking about not the universe, and that's why you're all wrong. |
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Don't you fuckers ignore my rant, dammit. I spent a good ten minutes of my life on that. Another MP3 Of The Week - Shpongle - Dorset Perception (Lo-Steps).mp3
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pi could not have existed before mankind bcuz there was nobody to bake it if u disgaree than im sorry but your dumb "The people against Bush are REALLY against Bush." - G-Man on Creole Ned
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I agree with much of what you wrote, schnee. |
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You're all arguing with bago. And that makes you more wrong than being wrong would. Now I'm a half-million dollars in the hole, and I'm sucking dicks in the bathroom at the Olive Garden. Thanks a lot, Nintendo!
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Thanks, lwf. ... and, hey, MP3! Another MP3 Of The Week - Shpongle - Dorset Perception (Lo-Steps).mp3
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DKI speaks lies. The doom pie has always existed, haunting the universe with it's evil powers. The need for an ever-fresh selection of euphemisms about dirty subjects has long served as an impressive engine of linguistic invention.
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#443 schnee Don't you fuckers ignore my rant, dammit. I spent a good ten minutes of my life on that. I saw it and accordingly deleted my more condense observation that "morality is just shorthand for the various heuristics behind the most popular ethical standards," so as not to be redundant. |
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Goddamn that's concise and beautiful. If you can always condense things down that well, be redundant. Brevity, wit, etc. Another MP3 Of The Week - Shpongle - Dorset Perception (Lo-Steps).mp3
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