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Bullfrog hops off?
August 1st 2000, 19:02 CEST by andy

It's another day, and another body blow for PC gaming as developers Bullfrog suspend development on the third Dungeon Keeper game, turning their attention to console development.



Electronic Arts' official Dungeon Keeper site has been updated with this message:

Development On Dungeon Keeper 3 Has Ceased

A third episode of the Dungeon Keeper saga was underway, but opportunities to develop new intellectual properties on new platforms such as PlayStation 2 have meant that DK3 has been put on hold.

There are currently no plans for another Dungeon Keeper game, however it remains an important franchise and there may be opportunities for us to pursue that direction in the future.

This is the first developer I've heard of cancelling a PC project to concentrate on console work. Not a good sign, is it?

C O M M E N T S
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#1 by "marcus pasquarella"
2000-08-01 19:05:25
pasquam@ece.orst.edu http://www.paqi.com
Sorry couldn't resist..... FIRST
#2 by "Matthias Worch"
2000-08-01 19:20:21
mworch@legendent.com http://www.langsuyar.com
I'm not so sure it's just Bullfrog deciding to abandon PC. Just as likely that it's pressure from EA to make something else because THEY think that DK3 won't sell enough, that they need a stronger PS2 presence etc.

<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#3 by "asspennies"
2000-08-01 19:22:59
asspennies@coredump.org http://www.coredump.org
Did we really need a Dungeon Keeper <b>3</b>?

This may have been a mercy killing.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#4 by "Andy"
2000-08-01 19:28:32
andy@planetcrap.com
<b>#2</b>, Matthias Worch:

Yeah, I was wondering if it was a Bullfrog decision, or if maybe there had been a bit of pressure from Electronic Arts. I doubt we'll find out any time soon.
#5 by "Lurks"
2000-08-01 19:32:48
lurks@planetcrap.com http://www.planetcrap.com
Actually an insider told me that dev ceased on that some while ago. This is an absolute disaster and there's one clear and simple cause of it all.

EA. The Evil that is the rotting foundation of everything that is wrong with the games industry as it stands.

This pack of corporate money-grabbing (and it's not often I use that phrase) toss-pots make no bones about their goals. EA isn't about good games. It's about quick-dev games that don't cost much money that they KNOW will sell.

Moving to consoles is just a symptom. It's too hard to make innovative PC games when any old license sport-sim garbage will sell on a console. Just port across some decent PC game or a poorly disguised clone and sell a bag load of copies.

They're completely focussed on the dumbing down of computer gaming. As a result they do not care one iota for the dedicated gaming press. It is their corporate belief that demos are also a waste of time and money and several senior ranking staff have been quoted as saying "they don't work".

Well no, if the games are shit - they don't.

Ever had to sit through an a speech from their suits at E3? It really is no different from some board meeting at an oil company, I imagine. 'Games' gets about as many mention. Product. Product. Volume Sales. Mass Markets. Reducing Development Outlay. Licence Promotion rah rah. It's not the gaming industry that some of us know and love, that's for sure.

And a previously independant developer like Bullfrog, with a long and distinguished career of making some absolutely legendary games... why do you think Molyneux legged it? Because EA were setting about destroying everything it stood for.

DK3 wasn't the only potentially great title EA canned recently but that's another story...

P.S. I'll see if I can get my insider at Bullfrog to comment under an alias.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#6 by "Gestalt"
2000-08-01 19:34:53
john@eurogamer.net http://www.eurogamer.net
Ah, that probably explains why Chris Killpack and Hitman Daz got shipped out to California to work on The World Is Not Enough then...
#7 by "Valeyard"
2000-08-01 19:50:19
valeyard@ck3.net http://www.ck3.net
<b>#Main Post</b> "andy" wrote...
<QUOTE>Not a good sign, is it?</QUOTE>

Honestly, this sort of situation has been going on for quite a long time...one designer drops the PC to focus on console gaming and another jumps eagerly into it's place.  It's all about chasing the almighty dollar (or pound).  Some developers decide that their efforts will be best rewarded on the latest console.

Seriously, a lot of this has to do with timing.  A game is developed in stages, if a new, big-name console is available when you reach the appropriate stage of design...developing for that console is often the best move.  If, instead, you are too far into your development cycle to shift focus, the cost-effective move is to stick with the plan.  Likewise, if you're too early in your development to meet the technology window, you're usually better off shooting for the moving target known as the PC.

While there will always be developers who prefer platform A to platform B, much of this industry is dictated by risk-assessment.  If the numbers say that your best bet is to switch platforms, that's what you do.  The obvious exceptions being those developers who are financially secure enough to work on their platform of choice...or several platforms.

Personally, I'm not bothered by the announcement, because I wasn't looking forward to DK3.  

I realize this post may sound dismissive, I'm not saying this isn't a valid topic or that it's not worthy of discussion...quite the contrary.  FOR ME, it's just not a big deal...I understand and accept that decisions like this are made on a regular basis.  It's just the nature of the beast.

-Valeyard<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#8 by "Scott Miller, 3D Realms"
2000-08-01 20:06:54
scottm@3drealms.com http://www.3drealms.com
I mentioned in a plan file back when Raven was bought by Activision, that it's not in gamers' best interests for a developer to be bought by a publisher, because the publisher--despite all good intentions--will eventually desire to control the developer and change its culture, vision, motivation, etc. for the worse.

I'm surprised that Blizzard has done as well as it has after being bought (no doubt thanks to the clout that comes with megahit after megahit), but it's one of the extremely rare exceptions that helps prove the rule.

This is true in any industry, and it's the clash of cultures and power that result in *most* purchases of one company by a larger company not working out nearly as well as planned--in fact, most such buy-outs are outright failures.  (There was a recent article about this topic concerning the many companies Microsoft has bought, and how so few have panned out.)

Scott
#9 by "PanchoVilla"
2000-08-01 20:08:08
pasquam@ece.orst.edu http://www.paqi.com
Speaking of the PC/Console debate I had a question.  If someone wanted to get started in making games, which is the way to go?  Is it easier to learn game programming on consoles or on the PC?  Any input would be appreciated.  I am hoping to work on something simple as a hobby/learning experience.  I would love to hear why you all think that on platform is better than the other.
#10 by "Dethstryk"
2000-08-01 20:13:26
dethstryk@damagegaming.com http://www.damagegaming.com/
No Dungeon Keeper 3? Talk about a kick in the teeth for me.. both of the original games sucked away so much of my time it isn't funny. I feel sorry for everyone at Bullfrog, because I'm sure they didn't want this to happen.

I'm going to miss ol' Horny.


--
Dethstryk
Damage Gaming
#11 by "Valeyard"
2000-08-01 21:03:18
valeyard@ck3.net http://www.ck3.net
<b>#9</b> "PanchoVilla" wrote...
<QUOTE>Speaking of the PC/Console debate I had a question. If someone wanted to get started in making games, which is the way to go? Is it easier to learn game programming on consoles or on the PC? Any input would be appreciated. I am hoping to work on something simple as a hobby/learning experience. I would love to hear why you all think that on platform is better than the other.</QUOTE>

I'm not an expert, so disregard this if an expert opinion conflicts...

It seems to me that someone wanting to start making games, ESPECIALLY if it's primarily a hobby/learning experience, simply *must* start on the PC.  There are plenty of programming languages and environments available, FAR more information and "help" files and it's just the path of least resistance.  I believe that in order to develop for a console, you'll need some "up-front" money, simply to gain access to the required information.

-Valeyard<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#12 by "fyrewolf"
2000-08-01 21:11:23
<quote>Is it easier to learn game programming on consoles or on the PC? Any input would be appreciated.</quote>

It's certainly more practical to learn game programming on a PC.  Console dev stuff is very expensive, and you still need a PC anyways.

You might be able to track down a Sony Yarhouze(or however it's spelled), but they also still require a PC.

f.
#13 by "Andy"
2000-08-01 21:17:47
andy@planetcrap.com
<b>#9</b>, PanchoVilla:

Trying to learn on the PC is probably your best bet, simply because (I assume) you've already got one and there's a lot of information available. Also, most of the tools you'll need can be downloaded for free.

If you try to learn console programming, you'll need (at least) a development version of the console, plus all the gear to link it up to your PC. And in some, if not all cases you'll need to sign an NDA with the console manufacturer. (This is how it used to be, anyway. Someone can correct me if things have changed.)

One other possibility that I know of, although I'm not sure of the legality, is emulation, ie: developing a console game, using an emulator instead of the console itself.

There's quite a big online community surrounding GameBoy development, which you might want to look at as a starting point. There's an emulator designed specifically for development, plus a load of graphics and coding tools.

Have a look at this site as a starting point for more info:

<a href="http://www.devrs.com/gb/">http://www.devrs.com/gb/</a>

There may be similar sites/communities for people wanting to develop for other console emulators, but I don't know of any off hand.
#14 by "Andy"
2000-08-01 21:20:52
andy@planetcrap.com
Oooh, would ya look at that...

The same site also has info about developing for the Neo Geo Pocket emulator:

<a href="http://www.devrs.com/ngp/">http://www.devrs.com/ngp/</a>
#15 by "crash"
2000-08-01 21:39:53
crash@planetcrap.com http://www.planetcrap.com
Scott (#8):
<i>There was a recent article about this topic concerning the many companies Microsoft has bought, and how so few have panned out.</i>

is this article on-line? if so, do you have an URL? thx. :)

<i>#include "disclaimer.h"</i><I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#16 by "Andy"
2000-08-01 21:48:48
andy@planetcrap.com
Off-topic...

Anyone remember back when Terminator 2 came out, there was already talk of James Cameron doing a Spiderman film? I've often wondered what had happened to that because I thought it would be pretty good.

Well, it's finally on the way...

<a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/entertainment/newsid_859000/859744.stm">Spider spins web for Maguire</a>

Tobey Maguire will star, with Sam Raimi directing.

As for Cameron:
<quote>
The film is based on an earlier treatment by Titanic director James Cameron, whose plans were scuppered by a lengthy legal battle over the film.

Marvel and Sony - Columbia's parent company - both dropped competing lawsuits in 1991 after an eight-year fight over the rights to Spider-Man.
</quote>
So if the film comes out next year, as planned, it will effectively be the result of a *nineteen* year project! Wow. The studio must really think there's a lot of money to be made on this one. They must have spent a fortune on it already.
#17 by "Derek Smart"
2000-08-01 22:05:28
dsmart@3000ad.com http://www.3000ad.com
<b>#8</b> "Scott Miller, 3D Realms" wrote...
<QUOTE>This is true in any industry, and it's the clash of cultures and power that
result in *most* purchases of one company by a larger company not working out
nearly as well as planned--in fact, most such buy-outs are outright failures.
(There was a recent article about this topic concerning the many companies
Microsoft has bought, and how so few have panned out.)
</QUOTE>

In other words, Bungie* is next? (<i>sorry, couldn't resist</i>)

* for one thing, I wasn't impressed by Halo at all. Any gerbil can pull that
off using Q3, UT or LT engine. Dunno what all that noise was about. Fakk, even
I can pull that (<i>the stuff from the Halo movie</i>) off with my current engines.




<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#18 by "El Asso Wipo!"
2000-08-01 22:27:26
stupadasso@hotmail.com http://www.whitehouse.com
<b>#8</b> "Scott Miller, 3D Realms" wrote...
<QUOTE>I mentioned in a plan file back when Raven was bought by Activision, that it's
not in gamers' best interests for a developer to be bought by a publisher,
because the publisher--despite all good intentions--will eventually desire to
control the developer and change its culture, vision, motivation, etc. for the
worse. </QUOTE>

That is sooo wrong!  Ravun ahs made games that are to better than befor and coundtn' have gotted there wihout the halp of Cracktivisino.  You are just jealous because of yur tiny winky.


Derek Smart is my dad!<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#19 by "Scharmers"
2000-08-01 22:29:14
scharmers@hotmail.com http://www.dogfighter.com
"* for one thing, I wasn't impressed by Halo at all. Any gerbil can pull that
off using Q3, UT or LT engine. Dunno what all that noise was about. Fakk, even
I can pull that (the stuff from the Halo movie) off with my current engines." -- Derek Smart
#20 by "Scharmers"
2000-08-01 22:29:34
scharmers@hotmail.com http://www.dogfighter.com
[whoops]

"* for one thing, I wasn't impressed by Halo at all. Any gerbil can pull that
off using Q3, UT or LT engine. Dunno what all that noise was about. Fakk, even
I can pull that (the stuff from the Halo movie) off with my current engines." -- Derek Smart

"Grreetings, humane! I am Commandar Derek Smarty Man, Supreame Being of teh Intargallactic Allieance! I bring yuo advanced technologey beyond yuor wildest dreams, mortals!!!"

Lowtax drilled this straight on.

What?  On topic stuff?  Oh, OK:

1) Electronic Arts used to be my favorite dev house when I was a kid (mid-80's).  This was in the days when "We See Farther", rather than the present "We See Dollar Signs".

2) DK3 gone?  That's too bad.  It's even more too bad that Bullfrog hasn't made anything but a sequel since Peter M. left.

3) PC being killed by consoles?  Jeez -- that's a story that hasn't been done to death at all, is it?  You know, I like UT way more than Q3 -- Q3 is for fagots.

--scharmers
#21 by "EvilAsh"
2000-08-01 22:45:32
evilash@eviladam.com http://www.eviladam.com
I read the article alluded to about Companies bought by MS not being to happy about it later on..

I don't have the link unfortunately.. but if you look through Shugashacks' Archives I know you can find it there.

In fact I do recall the article centered around Hotmail and how the former owners of the company were so disappointed with the direction of the company.

Its a very interesting article. And it talked about how niave companies could be hoping to get bought out by MS.
#22 by "FrO"
2000-08-01 22:58:50
fro_420@hotmail.com
Good, Dungeon Keeper blew nuts anyway... heh...

FrO
#23 by "Brandon 'GreenMarine' Reinhart"
2000-08-02 00:04:48
http://www.3drealms.com
Christ! This topic is so fucking one sided.  Look at the whole picture!!

Hasn't anyone noticed companies like arena.net entering the picture?  Who gives a fuck about Bullfrog, what cool shit have they given us recently?  Nothing!  

But look at arena.net.  They are a startup and their programming lineup is hot shit.  Most companies can't touch that kind of experience.

This "pc gaming is dead" theme is stupid.  The Willamette is going to be introduced at 1.4 Ghz.  The Playstation 2 won't be able to touch the PC.

I'm glad to see the fat cut from the PC gaming industry.  Give us more new blood and get rid of the short-sighted or no-sighted teams.

Another blow for the PC gaming industry?  What the fuck?
#24 by "flamethrower"
2000-08-02 00:12:37
flamey_at_evil@hotmail.com http://flamethrower.evilavatar.com
What <i>The Man With Two Names</i> said in <b>#023</b>

Bullfrog, Syndicate and sequel, Poplulous I, III, and III, Dungeon Keeper II, but what else?

They have nothing on the horizon. They should be planning and in the stages of making Halo-killers, or Dungeon Seige killers.

Hell, consoles might be a Good Thing for Bullfrog.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#25 by "Andy"
2000-08-02 00:17:24
andy@planetcrap.com
Brandon,

Who cares how good PC's are if there aren't any developers left to make games for them? (Which is the worst case scenario.)

But I appreciate your efforts to try and spice things up a bit. ;-)
#26 by "bagofmice"
2000-08-02 00:23:17
rcastle@microsoft.com
The interjection of morality into business decisions is rather absurd in most cases. These are binary images you run through plastic box for entertainment occasionally. There's not much morality in that. Which particular piece of plastic you run it through really doesn't matter in a moral sense.

It's not a loss for anyone.

<quote> Ballin on tha intanet massiv </quote>
#27 by "Brandon 'GreenMarine' Reinhart"
2000-08-02 00:23:45
http://www.3drealms.com
Andy -

My point is that there is no lack of developers making games for PCs.  The idea that developers are all jumping ship for consoles is a myth manufactured by Sony, sold to the media, and fed to the masses.  I haven't seen anything but an increase in the number of quality titles hitting the shelves.

Sure, some companies are moving the console, but there have been a shit load of startup announcements this month.

Andy...did you even read what I was saying?

Remember economics?  Remember the fact that there are millions of PCs in users homes?  Users that buy games?
#28 by "Brandon 'GreenMarine' Reinhart"
2000-08-02 00:25:54
http://www.3drealms.com
I mean, a shit load of startups this year. Heh.
Some may succeed, most will fail, but there is a much lower barrier of entry in the PC market than the console market.

Regardless of that, I still don't see the PC industry getting any smaller.  Its only endless media pages lamenting the death of the industry.  I just don't understand where this is coming from.
#29 by "Brandon 'GreenMarine' Reinhart"
2000-08-02 00:37:09
http://www.3drealms.com
Derek Smart said:

<QUOTE>for one thing, I wasn't impressed by Halo at all. Any gerbil can pull that
off using Q3, UT or LT engine. </QUOTE>

Then try it.  I guarantee you it would be easier to do it from scratch than it would be through a licensed engine.  Either way, its not trivial.  There are very few companies that have captured the attention of gamers and developers like Bungie and Halo.  Very few companies have turned heads with their first screenshot.  Its an accomplishment any game developer, PC or console, should strive to achieve.
#30 by "Show Time"
2000-08-02 00:50:34
bmw@carolina.rr.com
My virgin ears! Shit crap fuck, what the fuck? Brandon has corrupted me!
#31 by "Derek Smart"
2000-08-02 01:03:13
dsmart@3000ad.com http://www.3000ad.com
<b>#23</b> "Brandon 'GreenMarine' Reinhart" wrote...
<QUOTE>I'm glad to see the fat cut from the PC gaming industry. Give us more new blood and get rid of the short-sighted or no-sighted teams. </quote>

Okaaaay. Lets see how this one plays out. When I said this, I got a rocket shoved up my ass and some bastard was holding a lit match dangling from the end of a 10-foot pole and jumping up and down like a rabbit with a hernia.

<quote>Another blow for
the PC gaming industry? What the fuck? </QUOTE>

I guess the LGS blow wasn't hard enough?

<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#32 by "Brandon 'GreenMarine' Reinhart"
2000-08-02 01:03:50
http://www.3drealms.com
Ah sorry? I tend to be liberal with my language.
#33 by "Tom Cleghorn"
2000-08-02 01:08:49
tc10@st-andrewsspam?tryit.ac.uk http://www.fisty.com/~tom
Well, shit happens. I suspect it's probably an EA-related decision. I can't honestly see an existing, experienced PC developer downing tools and moving to the NDA-filled world of console games. Apart from any other concerns, the potential audience is far, far bigger than on a PC, simply because more people own consoles - and more potential players, while meaning more profit, also means more strain on your support mechanism. That might be mildly offset by the nature of the beast (console gaming, that is), but I doubt it, to be honest - console gamers want tip lines, cheat lines, blah blah blah and so forth, while a PC gamer is probably happy with a support email address.
Nonetheless, if you've signed a contract with a <s>pawn of Apollyon</s> publisher, and they say jump, you jump (or you get sued - your choice).
#34 by "Brandon 'GreenMarine' Reinhart"
2000-08-02 01:09:45
http://www.3drealms.com
Derek Smart said:

<QUOTE>
I guess the LGS blow wasn't hard enough?
</QUOTE>

Quite a different situation.  LGS didn't jump ship to make console titles and its not like their absense won't be filled by another company.
#35 by "Loose"
2000-08-02 01:12:51
arse__biscuits@hotmail.com
<quote>* for one thing, I wasn't impressed by Halo at all. Any gerbil can pull that
off using Q3, UT or LT engine. Dunno what all that noise was about. Fakk, even
I can pull that (the stuff from the Halo movie) off with my current engines.
</quote>

Do you believe the crap you write or are you just trying and fool others?
Even any non-dev reader can tell the difference between Halo and the current crop of 3D engines, let alone you're previous excuses for games, Derek.

I disagree with Brandon about bullfrogs recent stuff, Dungeonkeeper 2 was fkkking good game and sim theme park was OK if you like that stuff... Though he is right about there not being a lack of developers for PC... while PC games sell less then console games they cost less to develop compared to first-gen software (bare in mind r&d costs+times for new platforms)and have no manufacturer license moneh.

btw most of the western world is controlled by evil corperations who make their bucks doing far less interesting and useful things then making games...it's gonna be interesting watching infograms duke it out with EA for the big money, infogrames are looking for the big cash now too "any means necessary" :)
#36 by "ramtin"
2000-08-02 01:13:26
PC games coming to an end?  Oh my!  How horrific!

No more overpriced, buggy, patched-up, boring, made for an intellectual crowd pieces of crap. No more "online communities" made of little boys and social introverts.  No more laggy, bug-filled, fantasy murder sessions.  No more time-wasting, mind-numbing, sequels that were just the original games.

I will  really miss PC games.  We were such a cool little secret society, shunning the console players while we played inferior games on a $3000 business machine.  What will happen now?  FilePlanet doesn't even work anymore! Quake3 sucks!  Oh somebody save us! Save us from this nightmare!

I think PC sales were so good because PC gamers tried to trick themselves into thinking that they were having fun.  They thought "Damn, Half-Life would sure be fun with team play and all these new modifications.  Right after this 35 MB patch I'll get right to playing it.  Oh, what fun I'll have!"  How many PC games have you played that you really enjoyed and came back to over and over again even when the better thing came out? 4? 5?  Come on guys, the jig is up.  Consoles are better and the best thing to do now is just buy a dreamcast and save the money you were going to spend on a voodoo8 and 32 Megs of RAM on something useful?  Like, a life, perhaps?
#37 by "Brandon 'GreenMarine' Reinhart"
2000-08-02 01:13:39
http://www.3drealms.com
Tom makes a good point.  I would say there is definitely pressure from publishers to move towards console development.  But who cares about publishers?  Their days are numbered in the PC world and they know it.  At least in the realm of consoles they will be able to survive.

Once we have a decent broadband infrastructure you will be buying your PC games online.  Developers are just waiting for the chance to sell their games without giving a 70-80% cut to the publishers.
#38 by "Andy"
2000-08-02 01:18:17
andy@planetcrap.com
<b>#37</b>, Brandon 'GreenMarine' Reinhart:
<QUOTE>
Once we have a decent broadband infrastructure you will be buying your PC games online.
</QUOTE>
Once we have a decent broadband infrastructure, games companies are history. Piracy will be huge, PC and console games will be easily downloadable, prices will skyrocket, piracy will increase, prices will go up, etc, etc, companies will go out of business, and the industry will die.

I am the prophet of doom! ph34r me!

But seriously, this is what I think will happen.
#39 by "Steve Bauman"
2000-08-02 01:19:52
sbauman@adelphia.net http://homepages.together.net/~sbauman/
<b>#37</b> "Brandon 'GreenMarine' Reinhart" wrote...
<QUOTE>
Tom makes a good point. I would say there is definitely pressure from publishers to move towards console development. But who cares about publishers? Their days are numbered in the PC world and they know it. At least in the realm of consoles they will be able to survive.
</QUOTE>
It's all about driving up your stock price. EA becomes an Internet company with Origin. Bullfrog goes console. And two years from now, if those things don't pan out or some new thing pops up (hey look, the PC is hot again!), they'll focus on whatever the current buzzword/platform is. Whee.

---
"My life is a patio of fun."<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#40 by "Derek Smart"
2000-08-02 01:20:27
dsmart@3000ad.com http://www.3000ad.com
<b>#29</b> "Brandon 'GreenMarine' Reinhart" wrote...
<QUOTE>Then try it. I guarantee you it would be easier to do it from scratch than it would be through a licensed engine. Either way, its not trivial. </quote>

OK, so Q3, UT and LT are out of the question then. Just wait for my upcoming announcement.

<quote>There are very few companies that have captured the attention of gamers and developers like Bungie and Halo. Very few companies have turned heads with their first screenshot.
</QUOTE>

And most of those <i>very few companies</i> ended up with failed products. Don't ask me for a list, its too long. But from the top of my head: Messiah, SHOGO, TAK, Drakkan, Descent3, BZII, etc etc.  They all started with one kick-ass screen shot.

<quote>Its an accomplishment any game developer, PC or console, should
strive to achieve.</quote>

Bollocks. Most products nowadays, turn heads anyway - simply because everyone and their one-legged mother-in-law, has kick ass graphics. Halo made a big stink during an industry's <i>down time</i> and because, quite frankly, the movie was well choreographed. And as I understand it, everything in there was scripted (<i>in fact, it was bleeding obvious</i>). The physics (<i>vehicle</i>), the speech (<i>mouth moving, articulated limbs</i>), the terrain, the specialFX were not ground-breaking by any stretch of the imagination. The movie happened to turn heads because, with a bunch of elements, it was well choreographed. Tribes2 has all that (<i>with the exception of the moving lips </i>) but they'll probably continue to dumb it down, due to its multiplayer roots. Which is why, any multiplayer version of Halo (<i>if ever</i>) will have just as many dumbed down elements as Tribes2. I'm a fan of Tribes and am rooting for Tribes2, all the way  but I'll still buy Halo.
 
Don't get me wrong, the Bungie team are definitely talented and Halo will sell its numbers. What I am saying is that there is <i>nothing</i> ground breaking about what I saw in Halo. Physics libraries are everywhere (<i>Havok, Ipion, MathEngine etc</i>), lip synching (<i>Ventriloquist, Lipsinc etc</i>), terrain (<i>there are too may to name and any level 1 graphics developer, can do one</i>, vehicular control (<i>pah! trivial</i>). Halo took a bunch of cool elements and put together a <b>movie</b>. To me, its no different than doing a <i>proof-of-concept</i> tech demo for a publisher product pitch. It worked. MS and Take2, the 2 big names, hopped on, didn't they?

If you think you saw anything awe inspiring in Halo, you need to raise your standards a little bit higher, methinks. At the end of the day, its all in <i>the game</i>.

<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#41 by "Steve Bauman"
2000-08-02 01:20:30
sbauman@adelphia.net http://homepages.together.net/~sbauman/
<b>#38</b> "Andy" wrote...
<QUOTE>
But seriously, this is what I think will happen.
</QUOTE>
Warezter.

---
"My life is a patio of fun."<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#42 by "Steve Bauman"
2000-08-02 01:22:23
sbauman@adelphia.net http://homepages.together.net/~sbauman/
<b>#40</b> "Derek Smart" wrote...
<QUOTE>
If you think you saw anything awe inspiring in Halo, you need to raise your standards a little bit higher, methinks. At the end of the day, its all in <I>the game</I>.
</QUOTE>
Well, Bungie did the same thing with Myth (blew everyone away from screenshot one), and that game rocked. And their track record of creating compelling (and deep) games is pretty good (Marathon, Myth... I think Oni looks fab). So I'm inclined to say they'll pull Halo off.

---
"My life is a patio of fun."<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#43 by "Derek Smart"
2000-08-02 01:25:02
dsmart@3000ad.com http://www.3000ad.com
<b>#35</b> "Loose" wrote...
<QUOTE>Do you believe the crap you write or are you just trying and fool others?</quote>

Well, if anything, since you're so arsed about it, am still ahead now, aren't I?

<quote>Even any non-dev reader can tell the difference between Halo and the current crop of 3D engines, </quote>

Thats right. Any <i>non-dev reader</i>

<quote>let alone you're previous excuses for games, Derek. </QUOTE>

Ah yes, the gratuitous ancient jab and age <i>..if you can't uphold an argument, just jab, hopefully the subject will change and I will cease to look like an ass</i> technique. It gets <b>them</b> everytime.

And what game have you developed? How many units did it sell?

<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#44 by "Brandon 'GreenMarine' Reinhart"
2000-08-02 01:26:19
http://www.3drealms.com
<QUOTE>
Once we have a decent broadband infrastructure, games companies are history. Piracy will be huge, PC and console games will be easily downloadable, prices will skyrocket, piracy will increase, prices will go up, etc, etc, companies will go out of business, and the industry will die.
</QUOTE>

Necessity is the mother of invention.  I already know that companies like Intel and Microsoft are developing techniques for secure product delivery.  That's sort of a side issue though.

The bottom line is that right now, games cost so much because publishers take around 80%.  Remove the publisher, and game prices can drop significantly.  Uh oh....so now you can have a totally kick ass PC game for $10 bucks or the latest console game for $70?

Ultimately, techniques for delivering low cost games will be devised (already have been devised, just not put into play) that will combat piracy.  You can't pirate EverQuest.  All you need to have is a remote accounting system.  Remember, the goal isn't to defeat all 100% of the piracy cases.

Andy, don't be a prophet of doom.  Think things through.  Do you really think companies like Microsoft are going to stand by and let active delivery mechanisms fail?  They are the future of the software industry.

You guys all sound like you genuinely want PC gaming to fail.  Like you don't even give a fuck about trying to make it work.  Like Doom, System Shock and all those games you claim changed your life are really nothing.
#45 by "Loose"
2000-08-02 01:26:54
arse__biscuits@hotmail.com
<quote>Once we have a decent broadband infrastructure, games companies are history. Piracy will be huge, PC and console games will be easily downloadable, prices will skyrocket, piracy will increase, prices will go up, etc, etc, companies will go out of business, and the industry will die. </quote>

wwwwelll, what you'd want is that with broad band developers could still make the games but get them to the masses with out the suits in the publishing companies skimming the majority of the money off the top.
the music and book industrys have been talking this way for a while, removing the "middle men", and in the end the comsumer gets the product at a massively reduced cost, possibley so low it isnt work pirating.

anyway, it's not going to be a good few years yet until broad band can quickly download DVDs full of data... I think Sony's PS2 ideas about broad band services, especially for US/Europe may run into problems.
#46 by "Derek Smart"
2000-08-02 01:28:10
dsmart@3000ad.com http://www.3000ad.com
<b>#42</b> "Steve Bauman" wrote...
<QUOTE>Well, Bungie did the same thing with Myth (blew everyone away from screenshot one), and that game rocked. And their track record of creating compelling (and deep) games is pretty good (Marathon, Myth... I think Oni looks fab). So I'm inclined to say they'll pull Halo off.
</QUOTE>

Exactly my point. Its all in the <i>the game</i>. Engine or not, cool shots or not, if the games sucked, thats it. So far, Halo is nothing more than a work-in-progress scripted tech demo. Right now, we have Bungie's excellent track record, but we've had that with a bunch of companies, releasing duds of late. Thats all I'm saying.

And now that MS owns them? Well, at least they'd have an excuse if anything does go wrong :-)





<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#47 by "Brandon 'GreenMarine' Reinhart"
2000-08-02 01:29:50
http://www.3drealms.com
Remember that console companies make their money by being middle men.  Even though Sony has grand plans to unroll a massive broadband strategy, they still have to dip into the price of the end-product for console gaming to be viable.  So don't see the prices of console games dropping just because Playstation 3 has a 100mb NIC in it.
#48 by "Brandon 'GreenMarine' Reinhart"
2000-08-02 01:37:32
http://www.3drealms.com
<QUOTE>
Most products nowadays, turn heads anyway - simply because everyone and their one-legged mother-in-law, has kick ass graphics.
</QUOTE>

Dude, go to EB, look at the games on the shelf and ask yourself how many you wanted to buy when you saw the first preview?  Not many.  It is a CHALLENGE to rise above the noise in the PC gaming industry.  A company that does is on the road to success.

You want to make a great 3D game engine?  Its not too hard if you spend your time studying.  You want to SELL a great 3D game engine?  Good luck.  You need a hot game or a lot of noise or a lot of money to break into that industry.

Never, ever, think that promotion is easy or free.  Never, ever, think that your game company is the shit and can't ever go down.  Never, ever, take your companies livelyhood for granted.
#49 by "Loose"
2000-08-02 01:41:24
arse__biscuits@hotmail.com
<b> #43 </b>"Derek 'idiot' Smart" wrote...
<quote>Well, if anything, since you're so arsed about it, am still ahead now, aren't I? </quote>
English please, surely you're Ph.D gave you enough experience at writing proper sentances.  oooooh i forgot, lets not get into that again.

<quote>Ah yes, the gratuitous ancient jab and age ..if you can't uphold an argument, just jab, hopefully the subject will change and I will cease to look like an ass technique. It gets them everytime. </quote>

If you want to go and write complete bollocks such as saying Halo could easily be done in Q3/UT/LT engine, or that you had enough skills to do anything remotely as good as the Halo tech (talk is cheap, you ARE you're last game), that is full justification for anyone to come back and just blindly take the piss out of your supreme ineptness.
#50 by "Derek Smart"
2000-08-02 01:49:21
dsmart@3000ad.com http://www.3000ad.com
<b>#48</b> "Brandon 'GreenMarine' Reinhart" wrote...
<QUOTE>Dude, go to EB, look at the games on the shelf and ask yourself how many you wanted to buy when you saw the first preview? Not many. It is a CHALLENGE to
rise above the noise in the PC gaming industry. A company that does is on the
road to success.

You want to make a great 3D game engine? Its not too hard if you spend your time studying. You want to SELL a great 3D game engine? Good luck. You need a hot game or a lot of noise or a lot of money to break into that industry.
</QUOTE>

Yes, I agree with these points.

But nowadays, you don't have to make <i>that</i> much noise. There are so many <i>media</i> types out there, ready to print/show anything, you'd think they were starving or something (<i>erm, they probably are, come to think of it</i>).
<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
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