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T O P I C
E 2005
May 7th 2005, 13:30 CEST by Squeaky

The games, the boothbabes, the noise!

Just to keep it all in one place.
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Home » Topic: E 2005

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#1 by Wudi
2005-05-07 13:38:50
PWNED!

Inverted Mouse 4 Life, YO!
#2 by deadlock
2005-05-07 13:45:07
http://www.deadlocked.org/
E3 is a myth.

I don't need a platter I'll take it straight from the shelf
Give it to me raw I'll take it home and cook it myself
#3 by m0nty
2005-05-07 15:00:45
http://tinfinger.blogspot.com
So anyway, how about them Yankees?
#4 by Marsh Davies
2005-05-07 15:07:35
www.verbalchilli.com
Is there anything worth seeing at E3 this year? There's been little buzz about it.

#5 by anaqer
2005-05-07 15:16:32
Quake4, perchance? Looks like they're revving up the hype machine.

"So they don't even want to assassinate Comrade Bastya...? Am I worth shit now?!"
#6 by LPMiller
2005-05-07 15:21:48
lpmiller@gotapex.com http://www.gotapex.com
gothic 3

When LP says he's bringing Armageddon, he brings fucking Armageddon. - Caryn, 6/01/2004
#7 by UncleJeet
2005-05-07 15:33:23
What with Psychonauts and everything, I completely forgot that Still Life came out.  I've only played a bit of it, and I'm not going to evangelize it (yet), but one I get further along into the game I'll post a mini-review.  From what I've played so far though, it's excellent if you like adventure games.

Accipere quam facere praestat injuriam...
#8 by Warren Marshall
2005-05-07 16:28:50
http://www.wantonhubris.com/
Epic will be showing a thing or two...

Light travels faster than sound.  This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.
#9 by jjohnsen
2005-05-07 16:33:18
http://www.johnsenclan.com
I'm interested to see what the launch games will be for next Xbox.  Please, please, please another KOTOR.

Actually, the liberalism of the media - as a general thing - IS a major fallacy. What the media is, is a whore.  -LP
#10 by Neale
2005-05-07 16:36:45
neale@pimurho.co.uk www.pimurho.co.uk
Epic are singlehandedly responsible for destroying the garage game industry.

I have a hard time accepting that anyone could achieve this miraculously high level of stupidity. - Caryn
#11 by LPMiller
2005-05-07 17:28:03
lpmiller@gotapex.com http://www.gotapex.com
hardly.

When LP says he's bringing Armageddon, he brings fucking Armageddon. - Caryn, 6/01/2004
#12 by Marsh Davies
2005-05-07 17:37:22
www.verbalchilli.com
...Why? I thought the Make Something Unreal Contest and their wealth of modding utils would be a boon for garage games.

#13 by Neale
2005-05-07 17:43:10
neale@pimurho.co.uk www.pimurho.co.uk
I wasn't being entirely serious - it's the way that games are going now. The enormous amount of work required for the assets is taking it out of the realm of the amateur developer. When you have to make a 2,000,000 polygon model in addition to the 6000 polygon model that you would usually use, it's really bumping up the requirements. I can make models in the thousands of polygons quite happily, but in the millions? Nuh-uh.

I have a hard time accepting that anyone could achieve this miraculously high level of stupidity. - Caryn
#14 by Warren Marshall
2005-05-07 17:50:47
http://www.wantonhubris.com/
It's definitely a change in skill set.  Low poly modelling isn't nearly as valuable a skill as it was a last year.  This happens with every generational change in tech - people need to either adapt, forge a new path, or find something else to do.

Light travels faster than sound.  This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.
#15 by Neale
2005-05-07 18:06:02
neale@pimurho.co.uk www.pimurho.co.uk
I read some stuff that Rorshach wrote on polycount about the requirements and Epic's current recruitment policies. It's pretty much a quantum leap in producing assets.
I know that in some ways it can be a good thing (weeding out the dross for a start), but it just bugs me. Mainly 'cos I can't do it...

I have a hard time accepting that anyone could achieve this miraculously high level of stupidity. - Caryn
#16 by Penguinx
2005-05-07 18:26:21
Maybe if the industry would stop focusing on million poly models and start focusing that effort onto getting people who can animate their way out of a paper bag we'd all be better off.

FOR THE LOVE OF GOT MAKE IT STOP!
#17 by BobJustBob
2005-05-07 18:27:31
Is there anything worth seeing at E3 this year? There's been little buzz about it.


SPORE.

"he runs like dumbass, and jumps like moron" - fallen_child, GameFAQs
#18 by Warren Marshall
2005-05-07 18:28:02
http://www.wantonhubris.com/
Can't really animate any better than motion capture.  That's what bipedals look like in motion.  Exactly, in fact.

Light travels faster than sound.  This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.
#19 by Marsh Davies
2005-05-07 18:28:11
www.verbalchilli.com
Good point.

#20 by mgns
2005-05-07 18:28:41
Physics assisted animation is the next big thing, haven't you heard?

du var ensam nr du kom. och du r lika ensam nu.
#21 by Marsh Davies
2005-05-07 18:28:44
www.verbalchilli.com
Er... good point for Bob... but Warren's point is also within acceptable parameters.

#22 by Marsh Davies
2005-05-07 18:29:16
www.verbalchilli.com
And mgns too. In fact, I'd like to congratulate you all on a great topic, so far.

#23 by Penguinx
2005-05-07 18:29:22
Good animation accentuates natural movement and places emphasis beyond what occurs naturally.

FOR THE LOVE OF GOT MAKE IT STOP!
#24 by Hugin
2005-05-07 18:30:18
lmccain@nber.org
Peng is right about that.  I like eye candy.  I like it a lot.  But after talking to Charles a bit about Guild Wars vs WoW's art, I've come to think more about animations.  Last night I was playing CoH and my teammates and I were discussing how one of the reasons we liked the female avatars better was the run animation (and you do a lot of running in the game) was better.  Something about the back and arms of CoH's men isn't quite as good. (although CoH is generally well animated).
#25 by Penguinx
2005-05-07 18:32:24
Brad Bird could create something way more interesting and dynamic than slapping a few trackers on actor's elbows.

FOR THE LOVE OF GOT MAKE IT STOP!
#26 by Penguinx
2005-05-07 18:32:55
I haven't read anything about physics assisted animation, though, so I can't address that.

FOR THE LOVE OF GOT MAKE IT STOP!
#27 by Jibble
2005-05-07 18:36:38
I eagerly await the release of press kit images that have nothing to do with what the game actually looks like.  Also, highly speculative articles that are based on a 2 minute FMV or 1 minute of actual in-game play time.

Well it beats going to the video store to rent the latest hardcore releases twice a week. - G-Man
227 lbs.  47 to go.
#28 by Hugin
2005-05-07 18:38:54
lmccain@nber.org
#18 by Warren Marshall

Can't really animate any better than motion capture.  That's what bipedals look like in motion.  Exactly, in fact.




Motion capture has limits.  I remember looking at footage of a mocap session where they had some regular sized dude with the sensor suit and all, miming out some fight animations.  Which they them mapped to a giant humbacked toll looking thing.  And it looked wrong. But they don't make humans in that shape.  

How do you get good data for entities that aren't all that human?  Or for people who have metahuman abilities? Spider-man isn't human, physiologically speaking.  He's more flexible, he's stronger, his sense of balance is better, they're all literally superhuman.  So sure, mo cap some gymnast or whatever.  It's not going to be true to the character, not quite.
#29 by Penguinx
2005-05-07 18:45:57
For instance, in order to give Goofy's walkycycle more dynamic movement, the animators would employ a technique called breaking joints. Essentially, key frames would have the limbs of the character in poses that would, if he were real, break every bone in his body. By starting with a negative extreme and ending in a normal pose you increase the range of movement dramatically. It all goes by so fast you don't even realize that what they did was an impossibility.

There are several frames of Goofy walkcycles where his feet are literally on his body backwards.

This applies to most cartoons accross the board. Not just crazy characters like goofy. To add emphasis, you break joints, period.

FOR THE LOVE OF GOT MAKE IT STOP!
#30 by Penguinx
2005-05-07 18:47:17
Can't really animate any better than motion capture.  That's what bipedals look like in motion.  Exactly, in fact.


And we all know more realism in games makes them inherently better, right?

FOR THE LOVE OF GOT MAKE IT STOP!
#31 by Warren Marshall
2005-05-07 18:48:48
http://www.wantonhubris.com/
For cartoon or non-human characters, you're right.  I agree.  There's nobody on the planet who has Goofy's body so you really can't motion capture it.

Light travels faster than sound.  This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.
#32 by Warren Marshall
2005-05-07 18:49:27
http://www.wantonhubris.com/
And we all know more realism in games makes them inherently better, right?

Then maybe you should be more specific about what your animation issues are.  Are you talking about cartoons?  Stylized 3D models?  Mechs?  Humans?

Light travels faster than sound.  This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.
#33 by Hugin
2005-05-07 18:49:49
lmccain@nber.org
Er, humpbacked troll.  Not humbacked toll.
#34 by Penguinx
2005-05-07 18:50:15
Not only that, but creating cycles of animation that house keyframes in specific intervals is what makes the old Disney films so pretty and fluid. Fantasia? Everything was animated on 12's. All important changes happend in intervals of eight frames apiece.

Tom and Jerry? Chuck Jones features? All on 8's.

This type of tight animation is derided by today's animators who call it, "Mickey Mousing," but it's more because of how intimidatingly hard it is to do 'cause you can't argue with the results.

FOR THE LOVE OF GOT MAKE IT STOP!
#35 by UncleJeet
2005-05-07 18:52:48
Can't really animate any better than motion capture.  That's what bipedals look like in motion.  Exactly, in fact.

Meh.  I'm not a big fan of mocap in general, mostly because it's really the lowest form of animation and far from the best way to animate something.  After all, if exactly reproducing the movements of a real life actor/animal/whatever were, then rotoscoping would have been used a lot more back in the traditional animation days.  There's a reason that Bashki's rotoscoping work looks shitty, and that's because art is not about reproducing, in exacting detail, the physical reality.  There are nuances and subtleties and expressions of character that the animator puts in to whatever it is he's animating that you completely lose by depending on mocap.

I'd recommend some good books on animation history and theory, but I know you wouldn't read them anyway.  Instead, skip straight to you best Bailey imitation and we'll move on.

Accipere quam facere praestat injuriam...
#36 by Penguinx
2005-05-07 18:53:28
Warren, it applies to all the above examples. Cartoons characters, animated 'realistic' humans -all of them.

In order to pack extra punch into twelve or, at best, 24 measly cycles of animation per second you need to break the rules.

There's a great book by the guy who directed the animation unit of Who Framed Roger Rabbit named The Animator's Survival Kit. It goes into much deeper detail than would be possible to impart in a few posts online, but it's worth a read if this is something you have an interest in.

The guy who wrote the book trained with, literally, all the greats in American animation. It's the single best resource for animators I've found and it widely touted by animators.

FOR THE LOVE OF GOT MAKE IT STOP!
#37 by Hugin
2005-05-07 18:55:43
lmccain@nber.org
Warren, you reduced all of animation in games to regular humans with your mo-cap statement.  Given the number and frequency of nonhumans we all know appear in videogames, I don't see how Penguin was the one at fault here.  You made a narrow point that's completely true in one set of cases, and not so true in many others.
#38 by Marsh Davies
2005-05-07 18:57:01
www.verbalchilli.com
Mo-cap is excellent at what it does, which is capture the motions of humans. If you are then going to apply those motions to something inappropriate, then that isn't mo-cap's fault. Obviously lots of things need tweaking, and some things will be impossible to mo-cap, but that doesn't make it useless.

To hold it up as being artistically inferior is, well, poo. You might as well say photography isn't as good as painting.

#39 by Penguinx
2005-05-07 18:59:05
It IS artistically inferior.

FOR THE LOVE OF GOT MAKE IT STOP!
#40 by Marsh Davies
2005-05-07 18:59:56
www.verbalchilli.com
The creators of Gollum are angry at your naughty mouth-words.

#41 by Penguinx
2005-05-07 19:00:19
You all know how often I staunchly defend unproveable points -never. So, obviously, this is something I feel passionate about.

I'll post some excerpts from the book I referenced later today if I have a chance.

FOR THE LOVE OF GOT MAKE IT STOP!
#42 by UncleJeet
2005-05-07 19:00:29
Games should, by and large, strive to create what can't be found or experienced in the real world.  I keep hoping for the day to come where the game industry will stop wanting to be the movie industry and instead start to explore the immense possibilities that lie in creating totally unique and artistically expressive games.  I'll go back to WoW to illustrate how, in spite of its graphics being fairly low tech when compared with, say, the next Unreal incarnation, they are vastly superior because there's actual art direction there and a dedicated attention to creating a uniform vision of this alternate world.  All of the normal and parallax mapping in the world isn't going to make, for example, a sewer grate interesting if all you do is re-create what we can see every day on any city street.  Give a true artist the ability to give you his interpretation of the grate, however, and you'll be on to something.

Accipere quam facere praestat injuriam...
#43 by Hugin
2005-05-07 19:01:10
lmccain@nber.org
I don't feel it's useless.  Just not a tool that provides the best solution in all cases, and one that the industry overuses/misuses to some extent.
#44 by Penguinx
2005-05-07 19:01:49
I agree with Jeet.

Bursting into flames...

FOR THE LOVE OF GOT MAKE IT STOP!
#45 by Penguinx
2005-05-07 19:02:17
It's not useless, but it is inferior.

FOR THE LOVE OF GOT MAKE IT STOP!
#46 by m0nty
2005-05-07 19:02:52
http://tinfinger.blogspot.com
JEETPILE
#47 by UncleJeet
2005-05-07 19:05:00
Gollum was a blend of mocap and keyframing.  Contrast it with The Polar Express, where the mocapped right down to the facial animations, and tell me which one you think ended up better.

I also don't think that mocap is the best way to animate even humans.  Why?  Because of what I mentioned in my previous post - it's not about exactly mimicking the real world.  We see people walk around all the time, so what's interesting about that?  Instead, it would be nice to see each character animated in a way that reflects, in some small way, their personality.  What we get with mocap is somebody going through the movements, then it gets applied to all the models and it's just, well, boring.  However, if you rough-and-tough character walked with a slightly exaggerated swagger and your timid and shy character walked with faster, shorter steps or something, then the animation becomes as much of an important part in  character development as any amount of dialogue and backstory does.

Accipere quam facere praestat injuriam...
#48 by LPMiller
2005-05-07 19:05:01
lpmiller@gotapex.com http://www.gotapex.com
yeah monty, I can't really contribute to the conversation either.

When LP says he's bringing Armageddon, he brings fucking Armageddon. - Caryn, 6/01/2004
#49 by Penguinx
2005-05-07 19:05:03
I really want to learn to model in 3D to have a chance to create unique, simple models. I have a host of 3D Buzz tutorials and a few books burning holes in my pockets. I really ought to do that one of these days.

FOR THE LOVE OF GOT MAKE IT STOP!
#50 by Penguinx
2005-05-07 19:06:45
Jeet, you should read the book I mentioned -if you haven't already. I've stockpiled tons of animation resources if you're interested in having a gander as well.

FOR THE LOVE OF GOT MAKE IT STOP!
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