PlanetCrap 6.0!
Front Page (ATOM) • Submission Bin (2) • ArchivesUsersLoginCreate Account
You are currently not logged in.
T O P I C
Capsterred
July 30th 2000, 00:56 CEST by Mugwum

Well it's about time I did another bloody topic, right?

Napster closed on Friday.

But if I wrote about that, Andy would probably never speak to me again..

Anyway, as I was saying, Napster closed on Friday.



But then again, I like Andy. As such I think I'll avoid Napster and instead widen the topic to (as usual) something that vaguely interests me. After all, I'm hardly going to *research* a proper thread at 11:30pm on a Saturday night am I?

So, excuse the crap speeling, the awful grammer and the unproofread nature of the whole thing, but I *am* making this up as I go along, and I *will* get first post.

I've been wondering, what do people actually think about the whole peer-to-peer thing? And how, if you were a programmer, would you get away with it? CuteMX, after all, hasn't been closed down, and I haven't exactly been downloading drivers and patches from it..

It can't be too hard to get away with, after all, CuteMX is hardly the only program to actively encourage the distribution of slightly dodgy software and other forms of digital delight (MP3s and such, of course). And I know that a lot of PC's readers are "well-up" on the law regarding things like this. So (as with about 90% of my unresearched rantings), I throw the question out to you.

How can one company get away with it, and another not? Is it purely a case of handling the press, and building up watertight terms and conditions of use?

Instead of running away (which I usually do at this point), I'll proffer a little more thought of my own.

Obviously if you create a program like Napster you can't pretend that it doesn't do what it so blatantly does. In other words, you can't persuade people that black is white. My MP3 collection is 8.5Gb, but it's basically just my CD collection ripped with AudioCatalyst.. I've never shared it directly over Napster, but I did use Napster to find out whether I like new songs. If I didn't, I wouldn't buy a CD, where I might have done so without trying the song first. Does that make me a pirate?

The RIAA have shut Napster down because they (quite rightfully) fixate on the negative side of the software. For them, the small amount of musicians getting their stuff out into the unknown as a result of the software is unimportant compared to the massive losses big-time musicians feel this software will cause.

As such, Napster can't really win.

Yet, CuteMX exists. Someone, as I've asked, please explain that one to me.

C O M M E N T S
Home » Topic: Capsterred

|«« - Previous Page - Next Page - »»|
#1 by ""
2000-07-30 00:58:01
first
#2 by "Mugwum"
2000-07-30 00:58:40
mugs@mailmonkey.org http://www.eurogamer.net
I was aware you would do that.
#3 by "Dethstryk"
2000-07-30 00:59:15
dethstryk@damagegaming.com http://www.damagegaming.com/
Napster's appeal went through. They aren't shut down.


--
Dethstryk
Damage Gaming
#4 by "Mugwum"
2000-07-30 01:03:21
mugs@mailmonkey.org http://www.eurogamer.net
Oh bollocks.
#5 by "Mugwum"
2000-07-30 01:04:10
mugs@mailmonkey.org http://www.eurogamer.net
Well in that case this still applies, why are they taking all the crap for it? Why isn't the love being shared around a bit? Lawyers need to bill for something, I imagine.
#6 by "flamethrower"
2000-07-30 01:04:17
flamey_at_evil@hotmail.com http://flamethrower.evilavatar.com
Somebody mention Tapster.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#7 by "Andy"
2000-07-30 01:07:46
andy@planetcrap.com
Tom:
<quote>
Well it's about time I did another bloody topic, right?
</quote>
;-)
<quote>
CuteMX, after all, hasn't been closed down, and I haven't exactly been downloading drivers and patches from it..
</quote>
Hmm. I didn't know about that site, so I assume at least a few other other people didn't know about it either, so it might have been a good idea not to post the link.

Months back I was going to post a topic about a warez site, but I couldn't have done it without sending people to the site so I scrapped the whole topic. This link to CuteMX was a bit gratuitous.
<quote>
How can one company get away with it, and another not?
</quote>
The RIAA/MPAA etc will go after the worst offenders first. Makes sense financially, sets a good precedent, and sends a strong message.
<quote>
I did use Napster to find out whether I like new songs. If I didn't, I wouldn't buy a CD, where I might have done so without trying the song first. Does that make me a pirate?
</quote>
Not in my book, no.
<quote>
Yet, CuteMX exiplain that one to me.Mugwumain that one to me.
</quote>
Huh? ;-)
#8 by "Dethstryk"
2000-07-30 01:10:54
dethstryk@damagegaming.com http://www.damagegaming.com/
<b>flamethrower wrote in post #6:</b>
<quote>Somebody mention Tapster.</quote>
Spinal Tap, the comedic rock band, started their own service called Tapster. They said to make it simple, there is only one song on there, a new track by the band. (I checked it out the other day, and there was a lot of Spinal Tap related MP3s on the site.)

I had a clip from an article not too long ago where they talked about it, and it's friggin' hilarious. I can't wait till the DVD gets released of the movie.


--
Dethstryk
Damage Gaming
#9 by "Milky"
2000-07-30 01:12:50
chris@verbalchilli.com http://www.verbalchilli.com
Everyone knows Napster. The RIAA would look bloody stupid taking some unknown software house to court over a product that no-one uses. Therefore they chose, very sensibly, to target the most popular product in the field.

This is also a shot across the bows of other less popular programs to tell them not to bother.
#10 by "G-Man"
2000-07-30 01:16:42
jonmars@shiftlock.org http://www.shiftlock.org
<b>#7</b> "Andy" wrote...
<QUOTE>Hmm. I didn't know about that site, so I assume at least a few other other people didn't know about it either, so it might have been a good idea not to post the link.

Months back I was going to post a topic about a warez
site, but I couldn't have done it without sending people to the site so I scrapped the whole topic. This link to CuteMX was a bit gratuitous.</QUOTE>
Frankly I'm surprised that he mentioned CuteMX, most people are either jumping on the Gnutella bandwagon or just running their own underground Napster servers. CuteMX is in my opinion the superior alternative, due to it's friendlier UI. But then again it isn't open-source like the others are...

 - [g.man]<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#11 by "Andy"
2000-07-30 01:18:05
andy@planetcrap.com
FYI, BTW, and other acronyms -- the RIAA has also gone after another "music sharing" service, but I'm not going to say what it is because it never gets much publicity so I doubt it is widely known. But just so people know that Napster isn't the only service that has been taken to court.

Oh, and another BTW -- THANK YOU to the judge that ordered Napster to be shut down -- BOO HISS to the judge that accepted the appeal -- and THANK YOU in advance to the next judge that orders Napster to be shut down permanently. Few things will give me greater pleasure than seeing Napster die.
#12 by "Dipstick"
2000-07-30 01:18:38
dipstick@superkawaii.com
In <b>#Main Post</b> "Mugwum" wrote...
<QUOTE><A href="http://www.cutemx.com">CuteMX</A>, after all, hasn't been closed down,
and I haven't exactly been downloading drivers and patches from it..</QUOTE>

Actually, they have shut down. Look at their <a href="http://www.cutemx.com/">main page</a>:

<quote>GlobalSCAPE Restricts Public Access to its CuteMX Service
GlobalSCAPE announced today it is restricting public access to its CuteMX service pending the company's review of further developments surrounding the preliminary ruling in the Napster case.</quote>

They volentarly shut down. I don't know exactly why, but they did. Yet, Napster is still up.

And if anyone cares, here is the <a href="http://www.globalscape.com/company/pressreleases/press7-27-00.html">nearly useless press release</a>.

-Dippy
#13 by "Whisp"
2000-07-30 01:21:23
whisp_@hotmail.com
Here's a bit more on CuteMX.  From ZDNet:
<QUOTE>Meanwhile, at least one music-swapping site has folded under the threat of RIAA litigation. Globalscape, which is part of a publicly traded company, plans to unplug its CuteMX file swapping service while it explores the recent court proceedings</QUOTE>
Basically the same things as the press release.

-Whisp
#14 by "Andy"
2000-07-30 01:25:40
andy@planetcrap.com
Tom:
<quote>
After all, I'm hardly going to *research* a proper thread at 11:30pm on a Saturday night am I?
</quote>
Betcha glad you included that disclaimer now, ain't ya? ;-)
#15 by "Desiato"
2000-07-30 01:49:01
desiato_hotblack@hotmail.com http://www.spew2.com/
Er...a little research here...

Napigator -- runs alongside Napster, shows you a crapload of servers to choose from, not necessarily Napster-based.

http://www.napigator.com/

Gnutella - a non-centralized client, a little more work setting it up, but once you do...

http://www.gnutella.com/ (Just has a amusing frontpage quote)

http://gnutella.wego.com/ (One of many portals with actual download links for the client)

Once again, RIAA has merely squeezed the large internet balloon, not expecting 10,000+ clients to use these tools and others.

Oh -- a mention here of Scour Exchange is worthy, but most people on this network don't have big pipes...

http://www.scour.com/home.phtml

This client isn't restricted to given filetypes, and is quite cool -- I recommend checking out "Kidney Thieves -- Zerospace" single available for free download from the front client page. Cool stuff.

Napster was just the "ICQ" of filesharing -- all other typical forms still exist. Sneakernet, FTP, DCC, ICQ FileSend...etc..

Desiato
#16 by "shinything"
2000-07-30 01:54:07
shinything@yahoo.com
<b>Andy</b> #11:

<quote> Few things will give me greater pleasure than seeing Napster die.  </quote>

I know this was all covered in an earlier thread that wandered into this arena, but why go after Napster at all? Isn't it kind of like going after the auto manufacturer for producing the vehicle that is used in a bank robbery?
<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#17 by "Baytor"
2000-07-30 02:01:25
baytor@yahoo.com http://www.geocities.com/baytor
<b>#16</b> "shinything" wrote...
<QUOTE>

<B>Andy</B> #11:


<quote>Few things will give me greater pleasure than seeing Napster die. </quote>

I know this was all covered in an earlier thread that wandered into this arena, but why go after Napster at all? Isn't it kind of like going after the auto manufacturer for producing the vehicle that is used in a bank robbery?
</QUOTE>

I think it's more like going after a custom auto shop that specializes in making super-fast getaway cars for bank robbers.

I... AM BAYTOR!!!!<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#18 by "shinything"
2000-07-30 02:10:12
shinything@yahoo.com
<b>Baytor #17</b>:

But is that auto shop actually doing anything wrong? They put together a really fast car. You don't <i>have to</i> use it to rob a bank.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#19 by "None-1a"
2000-07-30 02:10:34
none1a@home.com http://www.geocities.com/none-1a
<b>#16</b> "shinything" wrote...
<QUOTE>I know this was all covered in an earlier thread that wandered into this arena,
but why go after Napster at all? </QUOTE>

That really easy, try seaching for a public domain song on Napster, you will not find much. why because all of the artist that are relasing stuff on napster are listed on the web site (about 10 total). And you can not very well sue thosands of users for it, while the company clames there is nothing they can do about it. In all reality the whole matalica banning issuse is going to end up biting napster in the ass (if they can ban users with one bands stuff why not every one else).

O and Andy I'd like to congratulate you on keeping your sinces in this while damn "I want my stuff for free" shit. And nobody had better fead me that you can try the music out first crap because the people doing that over napster are the minority (every one I know using it has a 10-20 gig MP3 collection and a mass of CDr that out number the CD's they've bought in the last 5 years). <I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#20 by "Baytor"
2000-07-30 02:19:05
baytor@yahoo.com http://www.geocities.com/baytor
<b>#18</b> "shinything" wrote...
<QUOTE>But is that auto shop actually doing anything wrong? They put together a really
fast car. You don't <I>have to</I> use it to rob a bank.</QUOTE>

Much depends upon intent.  If the guys making the cars know full-well that the vast majority of their customers are using them as getaway cars, they can be found guilty as a co-conspirator or an accessory.

What's the intent of Napster?  To make copies of songs from other people's harddrives.  That bit of copying lies outside the boundaries of the fair use stipulation in the copyright agreement.  To say that the makers of Napster are completely ignorant of the primary use of their software and service is pretty ludicrous.

I... AM BAYTOR!!!!<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#21 by "None-1a"
2000-07-30 02:23:14
none1a@home.com http://www.geocities.com/none-1a
<b>#18</b> "shinything" wrote...
<QUOTE>But is that auto shop actually doing anything wrong? They put together a really
fast car. You don't <I>have to</I> use it to rob a bank.</QUOTE>

Ok lets look at it this way.

former Auto shop customer: Yeah man BankRob cars is great, they'll sell you a fast as car that'll out run the cops any day.
You: But isn't it agenst the law to rob a bank?
FASC: Yeah, but there are thosands of people doing it every day using Bankrob created cars so it's just fine.
You: Ok sounds cool

BankRob cars salesman: We'll talk you normal car and turn it into one that can out run the cops, just don't do it ok.
You: Well are you doing any thing to prevent me from doing it?
BRCS: Well no, ok in reality if you try to rob the second national bank the car will die, but just remember it's primary use is to just have a fast car not rob the other banks.
You: ok what happens when I go to some other location.
BRCS: well if others aren't going there as well the car will not drive
You: so how many people are using it do go to places other then banks?
BRCS: well about 15, here's a list of them, there not really places you'd want to go.

The real problem is that napster has done nothing to prevent the mass of copywrite infrengment (even after proving it was possible to do so), at lest now. <I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#22 by "Andy"
2000-07-30 02:29:31
andy@planetcrap.com
<b>#20</b>, Baytor:
<QUOTE>
To say that the makers of Napster are completely ignorant of the primary use of their software and service is pretty ludicrous.
</QUOTE>
But Napster likes bullshit. Quote from the company's policy document:
<quote>
You should be aware that some MP3 files may have been created or distributed without copyright owner authorization. As a condition to your account with Napster, you agree that you will not use the Napster service to infringe the intellectual property rights of others in any way.
</quote>
"some MP3 files may have been created"? Gee, you don't say...
#23 by "shinything"
2000-07-30 02:31:16
shinything@yahoo.com
<b>Baytor #20</b>:

<quote>Much depends upon intent.</quote>

I guess I just have a hard time with the general tendency to dodge personal responsibility these days. Nothing I have heard indicates to me that Napster has a greater (or even equal) responsibility in this than the people <b>using</b> the software.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#24 by "Warren Marshall"
2000-07-30 02:36:30
warren@epicgames.com http://www.epicgames.com
Andy :
<quote>Oh, and another BTW -- THANK YOU to the judge that ordered Napster to be shut down -- BOO HISS to the judge that accepted the appeal -- and THANK YOU in advance to the next judge that orders Napster to be shut down permanently. Few things will give me greater pleasure than seeing Napster die. </quote>

Me too!  Whatever pops up to take its place is bound to have a better interface, and have a faster search engine.

Can't wait for it's successor.  ;)  j/k
#25 by "Andy"
2000-07-30 02:38:45
andy@planetcrap.com
<b>#23</b>, shinything:

Let's take this to an extreme...

I'm a nice guy. But a friend of mine is a real psycho. He loves beating people up just for the hell of it, and I'm sure he's going to kill someone eventually.

One day, he gets pissed off at you and beats you up. I stand back. When he's finished, you're lying on the floor, conscious but unable to move.

My friend turns to me: "Give me the gun."

You notice that I'm holding a gun.

If I give him the gun, it's up to <i>him</i> whether he shoots you or not. It's nothing to do with me. It's not my responsibility.

Would you want me to give him the gun?
#26 by "Desiato"
2000-07-30 02:39:20
desiato_hotblack@hotmail.com http://www.spew2.com/
I think the proper thing to do is once the possiblity exists, we should be able to address how to *deal* with it, not just react blindly.

It won't go away.

Napster shutting down will stop <B>NOTHING</B> Andy, and your shortsighted comment should be updated to reflect reality. (Wishing it away won't work, I'm afraid.)

This is merely the beginning, and those who aren't flexible enough to adapt to the changing circumstances really shouldn't be commenting in this thread.

If we needed close-minded opinions, we could just ask a few hermits or bedridden people for their comments on the situation.

So who is going to actually discuss the fact that filesharing is not going to go away?

Or are we just going to hash over Napster like the mainstream media has -- (the laggards) ill-informed and firmly believing that once the "evil napster" is shut down then all of our worries will be over.

Yeah -- sure it will.

Desiato

(Maybe we could ask Derek...uh...fuck that.)
#27 by "Baytor"
2000-07-30 02:39:22
baytor@yahoo.com http://www.geocities.com/baytor
<b>#23</b> "shinything" wrote...
<QUOTE>I guess I just have a hard time with the general tendency to dodge personal
responsibility these days. Nothing I have heard indicates to me that Napster has
a greater (or even equal) responsibility in this than the people <B>using</B>
the software.</QUOTE>

And here's me thinking they're just as responsible, if not more so since the primary use of their product is the flagrent violation of copyright law.

I... AM BAYTOR!!!!<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#28 by "None-1a"
2000-07-30 02:40:37
none1a@home.com http://www.geocities.com/none-1a
shinything read what andy just posted, the company knows many of the mp3's are not being downloaded legaly but continues to do nothing about it 99.99% of the time.

This would be like me letting my neighbor take my car to rob a bank and not doing a damn thing to try to stop him.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#29 by "Desiato"
2000-07-30 02:44:06
desiato_hotblack@hotmail.com http://www.spew2.com/
Oops I forgot -- Andy has me in the killfile or something, so if anyone enlightened enough to comment on what I have to say post it here -- I'd appreciate it.

He apparently likes to censor himself actively.

Desiato
#30 by "Baytor"
2000-07-30 02:44:19
baytor@yahoo.com http://www.geocities.com/baytor
<b>#26</b> "Desiato" wrote...
<QUOTE>Napster shutting down will stop <B>NOTHING</B> Andy, and your shortsighted
comment should be updated to reflect reality. (Wishing it away won't work, I'm
afraid.)

</QUOTE>

You would be amazed at how well the cheapest, weakest lock will deter theft.  People use Napster because it's incredibly easy to use.  Sure there are alternatives, but they're a bigger pain in the ass to use, therefore, fewer people will use them.  Shutting down Napster is a simple padlock on the door, which will prevent the more honest citizens from taking what lies beyond the door.


I... AM BAYTOR!!!!<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#31 by "Desiato"
2000-07-30 02:49:35
desiato_hotblack@hotmail.com http://www.spew2.com/
Wow...padlock eh?

Hehehehe...sure it is.

Like a strand of spaghetti is aircraft cable.

I think you're sidestepping the whole issue.

Will file transfer/exchange ever stop?

Oh.. <B>*NO*</B>

Okay -- so what draconian society do you propose? Should we bug everyones homes and data/telephone lines? Should we have superconducting quantum devices strapped to everyones foreheads?

It's really hard to decide where to leave people alone, isn't it?

What about the ease of copying video?

That never went away....movie theatres never shut down en masse. Wow....so...I guess all this filesharing doesn't mean SHIT?

Sure looks like it.


Desiato
#32 by "shinything"
2000-07-30 02:52:40
shinything@yahoo.com
<b>Baytor #30</b>:

<quote> Shutting down Napster is a simple padlock on the door, which will prevent the more honest citizens from taking what lies beyond the door. </quote>

so you want to prevent the <i>honest</i> people from stealing?  :)

<b>Andy #25:</b>

I really don't think that your analogy pans out in this case. Or maybe I just don't follow it. Is your psycho friend Napster? or are you?<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#33 by "None-1a"
2000-07-30 02:53:33
none1a@home.com http://www.geocities.com/none-1a
<b>#26</b> "Desiato" wrote...
<QUOTE>This is merely the beginning, and those who aren't flexible enough to adapt to
the changing circumstances really shouldn't be commenting in this thread.


</QUOTE>

So I guess I should just open my door and let any one in to take my crap just because people are doing it.

Point-to-point files sharing primary use is just plan wrong (ie distributing thing you wouldn't want others publicly knowing about over the web). If I have a band there a much easyer solutions to the problem of getting the name out then putting the stuff over napster (lets face it you have to know the name in the first place to use napster to find it in the first place). I can put up my own web site and distribute mp3's via that (as well as where we'd be playing etc), or even reqister with mp3.com and put my stuff there.

Secondly how exacly is peer-to-peer filesharing going to change the world beyond making it really easy to steal shit? Easy it cann't because you can't have promotion with out getting your name out and you can't get people to search out your name in a peer-to-peer settup like napster, cutemx, or any others unless they already know the name.

Electronic music and file distrobution is the future, once a secure way of doing so is developed, shit like napster is nothing omre than a bad trip down the wrong road that will only extend the time before the people using the more traditional sales and maketing systems will trust the electornic meathods.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#34 by "Andy"
2000-07-30 02:55:56
andy@planetcrap.com
<b>#32</b>, shinything:
<QUOTE>
I really don't think that your analogy pans out in this case. Or maybe I just don't follow it. Is your psycho friend Napster? or are you?
</QUOTE>
Psycho friend is the guy who wants to do something illegal.

I'm Napster, who doesn't approve/disapprove of what he wants to do, but has the necessary tool for him to do it.

If I stay out of it, you live.

If I give him the gun, you die.

(Of course, it could be argued that he might just kick you to death or strangle you, but obviously he wants the gun because shooting you will be easier.)
#35 by "Baytor"
2000-07-30 03:01:38
baytor@yahoo.com http://www.geocities.com/baytor
<b>#31</b> "Desiato" wrote...
<QUOTE>

Wow...padlock eh?

Hehehehe...sure it is.

Like a strand of spaghetti is aircraft cable.

I think you're sidestepping the whole issue.

Will file transfer/exchange ever stop?

Oh.. <B>*NO*</B>

Okay -- so what draconian society do you propose? Should we bug everyones homes and data/telephone lines? Should we have superconducting quantum devices strapped to everyones foreheads?

It's really hard to decide where to leave people alone, isn't it?

What about the ease of copying video?

That never went away....movie theatres never shut down en masse. Wow....so...I guess all this filesharing doesn't mean SHIT?

Sure looks like it.


Desiato </QUOTE>

Actually, I think you're sidestepping the issue.

Do you honestly think Napster has a legal leg to stand on?  It's a commercial enterprise based upon the illegal copying of music, and I doubt even the most anxious of civil libertarians will accuse the legal maneurvering against them as anything resembling draconian.  

Let's take your example, the copying of video.  VCR's primary use by its customer base is the videotaping of programs they cannot watch at airtime.   This is within the fair use of copyright law.  As such, the makers of VCR's are not in the same category of Napster.

Now, if you don't think a padlock doesn't deter theft, think about the half-ass, easily countered anti-copying measures employed by the PC game industry.  Anybody with an ounce of determination can figure out how to bypass them, but by putting a simple hurdle in the way, the majority of customers will not.  That's the deterence of theft.  Sure, there are plenty who'll cut through that padlock in a second, but it prevents illegal copying and distribution.

I... AM BAYTOR!!!!<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#36 by "Baytor"
2000-07-30 03:04:51
baytor@yahoo.com http://www.geocities.com/baytor
<b>#32</b> "shinything" wrote...
<QUOTE>so you want to prevent the <I>honest</I> people from stealing? :)

</QUOTE>

Take a course in psychology and you'll find how morally adaptable the human species can be.  A padlock re-enforces the illegality of the act preventing moral drift.

I... AM BAYTOR!!!!<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#37 by "shinything"
2000-07-30 03:06:31
shinything@yahoo.com
<b>Andy #34</b>:

<quote>
If I stay out of it, you live.

If I give him the gun, you die. </quote>

Agreed. However, I hope like hell that the first people the law goes after is Psycho friend, not you.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#38 by "Andy"
2000-07-30 03:11:27
andy@planetcrap.com
<b>#37</b>, shinything:
<QUOTE>
Agreed. However, I hope like hell that the first people the law goes after is Psycho friend, not you.
</QUOTE>
Right, but now imagine I've got a thousand psycho friends, and a thousand guns, and they're all waiting for me to start handing out the hardware.

Who should the law go after then?
#39 by "Baytor"
2000-07-30 03:13:34
baytor@yahoo.com http://www.geocities.com/baytor
<b>#36</b> "Baytor" wrote...
<QUOTE>

<B>#32</B> "shinything" wrote...

<quote>so you want to prevent the <I>honest</I> people from stealing? :)

</quote>

Take a course in psychology and you'll find how morally adaptable the human species can be. A padlock re-enforces the illegality of the act preventing moral drift.
</QUOTE>

Or, how's this for an example.  I worked in a Subway for a few years, and in all that time, dealing with the drunkest of drunk morons, only about three ever ventured past the unlocked swinging door into the employee area.  

Why?  Because that simple barricade spoke to the sense of order conditioned into us since earliest childhood.  A lock is an even more powerful icon.

I... AM BAYTOR!!!!<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#40 by "Sgt Hulka"
2000-07-30 03:16:17
Sgt_Hulka@Hulka.com http://www.hulka.com
<b>#25</b> "Andy" wrote...
<QUOTE>Would you want me to give him the gun?
</QUOTE>

Hrmm.. How would Brian Botano handle this situation?  Let's all think this out. He just beat up the other dude. If you don't give him the gun he might beat you up.  Which would you rather do, get your ass kicked by your psycho friend, or give him the gun?  You've got to start hanging with a better crowd.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#41 by "Jeremy"
2000-07-30 03:18:37
jnthornh@eos.ncsu.edu
<b>#33</b> "None-1a" wrote...
<QUOTE>Electronic music and file distrobution is the future, once a secure way of doing so is developed, shit like napster is nothing omre than a bad trip down the wrong road that will only extend the time before the people using the more traditional sales and maketing systems will trust the electornic meathods.</QUOTE>
You honestly think that once the music industry starts selling their media digitally that pirating will stop?

If the industry had started offering digital music at reasonable rates <B>before</B> the existance of an idiot-proof pirating program like Napster, things might have been different.  But now...

People who used Napster will find a way.  They've grown accustomed to piracy, and at this point it's too late for any commercial distribution method to win back people who have come to expect their music to be free.  Even if these folks are computer illiterate dolts dialing up over AOL, they want their free music, and they'll damn well get it; even if it means having to read a readme.txt file in order to configure a gnutella clone.

Killing Napster changes nothing, except perhaps forcing some computer illiterates to actually put some effort into their piracy now.  This simply removes the piracy training wheels; most of these people will figure out how to keep on riding the bike without them.

What's the solution?

Shut down the internet.  Nothing else will stop this.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#42 by "Andy"
2000-07-30 03:21:30
andy@planetcrap.com
To continue what Baytor is saying, consider:

 * How many people shoplift?

 * How many rob banks?

 * How many hijack aircraft?

The easier it is to commit a self-profiting crime, the more people will do it.

Then consider:

 * How many people steal cars?

 * How many steal computer software?

The easier it is to commit a self-profiting crime -- and get away with it -- the more people will do it.
#43 by "BarneyQue"
2000-07-30 03:25:34
barneyque@hotmail.com
<b>#41</b> "Jeremy" wrote...
<QUOTE>

What's the solution?

Shut down the internet. Nothing else will stop this.</QUOTE>


Speaking of which, my boss asked me to reboot the internet this weekend.  Sorry about that guys, I'll try to be quick about it though.


:)<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#44 by "Andy"
2000-07-30 03:27:17
andy@planetcrap.com
<b>#41</b>, Jeremy:
<QUOTE>
If the industry had started offering digital music at reasonable rates <B>before</B> the existance of an idiot-proof pirating program like Napster, things might have been different.
</QUOTE>
But not <i>much</i> different, I'd guess.

The only example I can think of to back this up would be Riding The Bullet, the short story that Stephen King sold exclusively online a few months ago. That was sold at $2.50 which is a reasonable price, but still the security was cracked and it was distributed for free.
<QUOTE>
Shut down the internet. Nothing else will stop this.
</QUOTE>
You're joking, I know, but I'll nod in agreement. I like the Net -- hell, I'm online most of the day and pretty much everything I do is somehow tied to the Net -- but if the whole thing was shut down tomorrow, I wouldn't feel too bad about it.

The Internet does a lot of damage to people, and takes a lot away from society, and it gives very little back by comparison.
#45 by "Andy"
2000-07-30 03:27:18
andy@planetcrap.com
<b>#41</b>, Jeremy:
<QUOTE>
If the industry had started offering digital music at reasonable rates <B>before</B> the existance of an idiot-proof pirating program like Napster, things might have been different.
</QUOTE>
But not <i>much</i> different, I'd guess.

The only example I can think of to back this up would be Riding The Bullet, the short story that Stephen King sold exclusively online a few months ago. That was sold at $2.50 which is a reasonable price, but still the security was cracked and it was distributed for free.
<QUOTE>
Shut down the internet. Nothing else will stop this.
</QUOTE>
You're joking, I know, but I'll nod in agreement. I like the Net -- hell, I'm online most of the day and pretty much everything I do is somehow tied to the Net -- but if the whole thing was shut down tomorrow, I wouldn't feel too bad about it.

The Internet does a lot of damage to people, and takes a lot away from society, and it gives very little back by comparison.
#46 by "Andy"
2000-07-30 03:28:11
andy@planetcrap.com
Sorry, first time for everything. :-(
#47 by "shinything"
2000-07-30 03:32:33
shinything@yahoo.com
<b>Baytor #36</b>:

<quote>Take a course in psychology and you'll find how morally adaptable the human species can be. A padlock re-enforces the illegality of the act preventing moral drift.</quote>

Gonna have to get Socratic on your ass...

My dictionary defines "moral" as an internal knowledge that something is right or wrong. If the restraint is external, it doesn't qualify as "moral". Not saying you are wrong about the effect, deterents are certainly effective, just saying that the phrase "moral drift" strikes me as rather amusing (in a sad kinda way).<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#48 by "Warren Marshall"
2000-07-30 03:34:46
warren@epicgames.com http://www.epicgames.com
<quote>The Internet does a lot of damage to people, and takes a lot away from society, and it gives very little back by comparison. </quote>

That's actually kind of interesting ... I think it also gives a lot back.

I know people online that I NEVER would have met in real life ... people in different countries for example.  I have better relationships with some people online than I do with some real life people.

I have my job today because of the internet ... getting my levels distributed, being able to run a website (MPQ), being able to contact people who work in game companies ... email, ICQ, etc ... using these things, I was able to get myself a job making games.

It also allows me to stay in touch with my Dad, who lives in Canada.  Sure I can call him whenever I want, and the long distance isn't prohibitively expensive ... but if I just want to drop him a quick comment or send him a funny web page or whatever, I just click his name in ICQ and do it ...

I agree that people probably shouldn't LIVE on the internet, but I personally would be pretty upset if it went away ...
#49 by "Baytor"
2000-07-30 03:37:14
baytor@yahoo.com http://www.geocities.com/baytor
<b>#47</b> "shinything" wrote...
<QUOTE>My dictionary defines "moral" as an internal knowledge that something is right
or wrong. If the restraint is external, it doesn't qualify as "moral". Not
saying you are wrong about the effect, deterents are certainly effective, just
saying that the phrase "moral drift" strikes me as rather amusing (in a sad
kinda way).</QUOTE>

To quote Robert Heinlein, "man is not a rational animal, he's a rationalizing animal."

Most people believe themselves to be moral, even when engaging in activity they know to be wrong.  They rationalize it away by saying that it doesn't hurt anyone.

I've used Napster a bit.  I've probably downloaded a dozen songs, mostly rarities by artists I follow.  I could buy the soundtrack or compilation album they're from, but I consider those albums to be a bit of a rip-off, so I rationalize away the guilt of my action.

I... AM BAYTOR!!!!<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#50 by "None-1a"
2000-07-30 03:45:14
none1a@home.com http://www.geocities.com/none-1a
Jeremy, I think you might have missed the point of what I meant by that last paragraph. I firmly belive that has napster not started up we'd be downloading some form of semi-secure at a low cost right now, or even using the custom CD online ordering system that has been tried a few times (with consent from the RIAA). Unfortinitly now it's going to take a lot longer for really secure setups to be in use (well that and the US government takeing that damn high security export ban off).

With out peer-to-peer file sharing security will still be cracked, I'm not saying it wouldn't. However I really don't think the majority of napster users would continue to search of MP3 using ftps and mp3 searches, hell the majority of napster uses do not know they can switch servers for it.

<b>#47</b> "shinything" wrote...
<QUOTE>My dictionary defines "moral" as an internal knowledge that something is right
or wrong. If the restraint is external, it doesn't qualify as "moral". Not
saying you are wrong about the effect, deterents are certainly effective, just
saying that the phrase "moral drift" strikes me as rather amusing (in a sad
kinda way).</QUOTE>

shiny ever hear the argument that people are born imoral and with out those external restraints people simply do what ever the hell they want to do when ever they want to do it? O and what dictionary are you using, the Websters definition is "of or pertaining to conduct or charactor from the point of right or wrong" (kind of skirting the whole are morals inharent to all people or based on influance from others issue).<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
C O M M E N T S
Home » Topic: Capsterred

|«« - Previous Page - Next Page - »»|
P O S T   A   C O M M E N T

You need to be logged in to post a comment here. If you don't have an account yet, you can create one here. Registration is free.
C R A P T A G S
Simple formatting: [b]bold[/b], [i]italic[/i], [u]underline[/u]
Web Links: [url=www.mans.de]Cool Site[/url], [url]www.mans.de[/url]
Email Links: [email=some@email.com]Email me[/email], [email]some@email.com[/email]
Simple formatting: Quoted text: [quote]Yadda yadda[/quote]
Front Page (ATOM) • Submission Bin (2) • ArchivesUsersLoginCreate Account
You are currently not logged in.
There are currently 0 people browsing this site. [Details]