PlanetCrap 6.0!
Front Page (ATOM) • Submission Bin (1) • ArchivesUsersLoginCreate Account
You are currently not logged in.
T O P I C
GoD Bites The Devine Apple
July 29th 2000, 02:08 CEST by andy

There appears to be some disagreement within the upper echelons of the development world. Nothing unusual about that, of course, but this disagreement is about Apple's support for game developers and publishers, an issue which shouldn't really lend itself to subjective views...



In a recent interview, Gathering of Developers' Mike Wilson commented: "Apple has basically abandoned gaming as a priority, and therefore most game publishers are abandoning it. [...] We have been very vocal about our support of Apple and the Mac up to now, but I have to say that there has been no reciprocity whatsoever."

He has since updated his .plan file to clarify: "My comments about lack of support were solely geared toward publisher/marketing related support. I'm mostly disappointed that [Apple's] marketing direction has nothing to do with gaming."

In contrast to this, last week Id Software's Graeme Devine commented on his experience at the MacWorld show: "Walking around the show floor and talking to the various Mac developers and publishers it's clear that the level of support Apple is providing across the game community is making a huge and positive difference." He concluded: "Apple is really there for game developers right now."

So what's going on? Why does Graeme report that game publishers are pleased with Apple's support, when Mike claims that "most game publishers are abandoning" the Mac?

C O M M E N T S
Home » Topic: GoD Bites The Devine Apple

|«« - Previous Page - Next Page - »»|
#1 by "Whisp"
2000-07-29 02:08:58
whisp_@hotmail.com
HAHAHAH!

-Whisp
#2 by "XPav"
2000-07-29 02:12:05
alex@pavloff.net http://www.pavloff.net
Because everyone loves Id.  

Hardware manufacturers especially.  How many device drivers out there have been specially optimized to run Quake, the benchmark tool of choice?

What Id see's doesn't strike me any sort of gauge of the situation.  The fact that smaller company after smaller company (including what was that one, oh yeah, Valve) canceled the Mac versions is much more interesting.
#3 by "Whisp"
2000-07-29 02:12:23
whisp_@hotmail.com
What I don't understand is the level of hostility Apple has shown towards ATI when they spilled the beans.  I can understand being upset, but to the point where new Macs may not use the ATI boards at all?  I must be missing something here.

I can't believe I just did that.

-Whisp
#4 by "brennan"
2000-07-29 02:13:39
scottsyoen@home.com
I personally fully expect to be console gaming within a couple of years.  I just seems to make more economic sense for developers.  I mean, maybe I'm wrong, but I can't see a good reason to pour resources into Mac development when the PC and especially console markets are large, well-established, and profitable.  I don't know that I like this, but it seems to be the way things are going.

-brennan<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#5 by "Nemesis"
2000-07-29 02:17:36
Nemesis@planethalflife.com
I fully pray i'm not console gaming in the next few years...

unless of course they give me a keyboard, mouse, harddrive to store my downloads on and a screen that will support higher than TV resolutions......

Hold on I think I spied one of those on my desk.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#6 by "Whisp"
2000-07-29 02:25:20
whisp_@hotmail.com
I think the mouse and the keyboard are finally coming because of the FPS market, but companies have been promising them for years.  Who knows.  

As for that fancy screen - well, I wouldn't hold your breath.  Sure you can pick up TV's that do, but there isn't much there that supports the extra quality, at least in the US.  I've been hearing how super cool new televisions are just a few years away for the last 10 years at least.

-Whisp
#7 by "Warren Marshall"
2000-07-29 02:53:06
warren@epicgames.com http://www.epicgames.com
Speaking of console and high-res TV's ... I was considering picking up a DreamCast the other day, but since I don't have a TV, I wanted to see if there was some way to run the video on my computer monitor.  So I go to Sony's site ... sure enough, they have a cable for it!  But what's that?  It only works with certain games?  :(
#8 by "Brandon 'GreenMarine' Reinhart, Swordmaster of Kir"
2000-07-29 02:59:52
http://www.3drealms.com
Warren, if you borrow my Blam! thingy that Cliff has, you can run a console into a computer monitor...  its a purple box.
#9 by "Nemesis"
2000-07-29 03:01:04
Nemesis@planethalflife.com
Got round the cable problem with my playstation by installing a TV tuner card (which I wanted any way)....<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#10 by "Darkseid-[D!]"
2000-07-29 03:01:48
darkseid-d@planetcrap.com http://www.captured.com/boomstick
or the Iomega Buzz :)


Ds<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#11 by "Chris Johnson"
2000-07-29 03:08:26
Andy:  just to point out:

Mike's statements were about the Publishing/Marketing side of things, while Graeme's seem to be about Development.

As id is published by Activision, I wouldn't think the main thrust of their worry would be on the marketing side of things,  whereas Mike  would be far more involved and worried about the marketing and support for publishers that Apple has in place.  I'd guess that this could be a huge reason for the disparity of the views.
#12 by "Nemesis"
2000-07-29 03:09:33
Nemesis@planethalflife.com
/Off topic/

Anyone know if you can still get DOS 6.22 anywhere as I have this serious urge to play Jagged Alliance but can't find my sodding DOS disks to install under vmWare...

Alternatively go out and buy an SGI that'll solve any video inputs I can think of...<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#13 by "BarneyQue"
2000-07-29 03:13:50
BarneyQue@hotmail.com
When I read Graeme Devine's comments in full at Blue's, I nearly threw up.  Almost instantly, I wondered who wrote up that nasty piece of PR for him to take credit for.

I don't know, mabey I'm just squeamish to that sort of thing, but it just rubbed me in all the wrong way's, and I started thinking a whole pile of bad stuff about him, apple, and the PR agent who penned that pile of trash.

Having said that, I have no opinion as to Apple's developer support, I'm in no position to make a call, but that piece really sounded way too over the top and scripted to be an authentic comment.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#14 by "Steve Bauman"
2000-07-29 03:20:14
sbauman@adelphia.net http://homepages.together.net/~sbauman/
As Chris Johnson said, Devine works for a developer as opposed to a publisher, and I'm assuming that what Mike Wilson was referring to had to do with things like co-op marketing and perhaps something as simple as spotlighting entertainment on their website or something (Intel does this).

Basically, Apple isn't doing much to promote games, but there are a large number of developers (The Gathering included) supporting Mac gaming. He's probably asking for some reciprocal support.

There are plenty of developers who'd love to work with Apple on turning the Mac into a viable gaming platform; they want to sell as many games as as possible, Mac, PC, console, who cares? But they need Apple's help.

As an aside, Apple's new "buttonless" mouse has to be a gamer's worst nightmare... if the hockey puck with the iMac and G3 wasn't bad enough.

---
"My life is a patio of fun."<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#15 by "Creampuff"
2000-07-29 03:51:13
puff@me.com http://www.puffy.com
Apple sux!
#16 by "George Broussard"
2000-07-29 04:22:06
georgeb@3drealms.com
<quote>What Id see's doesn't strike me any sort of gauge of the situation. The fact that smaller company after smaller company (including what was that one, oh yeah, Valve) canceled the Mac versions is much more interesting. </quote>

In essence Mac gaming is (and has been) dead.  id supports it because John Carmack loves the challenge of making truly portable games.  The goal isn't to port to make extra money.  It's to port because it's "cool" and fun to do.  

But the reality is that most ports to the Mac aren't worth it.  Hits that sell 1 million plus on a PC may sell 100K on a Mac.  And other games far, far less.

And it still costs a LOT to port over, if not as much as the original game to make.  So where is the incintive for a publisher for spend 500-700K on a Mac port that will sell 25K-100K copies?  It just isnt' there.

Yes, if all games were made with portability in mind and they were just simple compile options, sure.  But 99.9% of games aren't made that way and never will be.

MAC gaming is dead.  You wanna play games, get a PC or a console.

George Broussard, 3D Realms
#17 by "Andy"
2000-07-29 04:50:21
andy@planetcrap.com
<b>#16</b>, George Broussard:
<QUOTE>
MAC gaming is dead. You wanna play games, get a PC or a console.
</QUOTE>
Alternatively, people could stop listening to nay-sayers like your good self and put their faith in developers with a more positive outlook.

George, you're still thinking of yourself as having the image and authority that you had -- rightfully so -- a few years ago. But that's no longer realistic. Apogee/3DR is no longer a market leader. Your opinion on the modern PC games industry and the trends within it has no great credibility or importance, because you're not currently operating within that industry.

You say that Mac gaming is dead.

Id Software, Microsoft, and as of last week all of the development teams under Microsoft's wing, say that it isn't.

Let's just say that I know which side I'm listening to.

And before you flame me or say I'm biased against you: Don't. I'm not. I'm being honest. It just happens that I'm being honest about <i>you</i>. :-)
#18 by "George Broussard"
2000-07-29 04:58:28
georgeb@3drealms.com
Andy,

<quote>Alternatively, people could stop listening to nay-sayers like your good self and put their faith in developers with a more positive outlook. </quote>

Sorry, I speak from the grounded, realistic point of view.  Also from years in the industry and watching it.  No developer (in general)wants to port to Mac.  Period.  Publishers decide to port games to Mac because they are successful pc products and it's a chance to make mroe $$$.  That's all.

I'm not nay-saying.  I'm telling you the reality.  Mac's are in reality a small, insignificant market for gaming.  Fact.  Sorry, but it's true.

<quote>Your opinion on the modern PC games industry and the trends within it has no great credibility or importance, because you're not currently operating within that industry. </quote>

Whatever Andy.  You're funny sometimes.  I don't tell you things because I feel important.  I tell you them, because they are true.  Just look at the past history of Mac games.  Good lord man.  It's obvious it's a dead gaming platform.  It's common knowledge to every developer I know.

<quote>You say that Mac gaming is dead.
Id Software, Microsoft, and as of last week all of the development teams under Microsoft's wing, say that it isn't. </quote>

*sigh* The sales numbers and potential indicate it IS dead.  Or at least if not dead, not worth the money pursuing.  The ONLY reason id supports Mac's (again) is that John likes to do so.  They don't do it for the money (and they will themselves probably tell you it isn't worth it).  They do it because of the cool factor.  id is at the top of the Mac gaming food chain with Q3A.  But that doesn't mean it's worth porting games like System Shock 2, Deus Ex, etc etc over to Mac.

<quote>And before you flame me or say I'm biased against you: Don't. I'm not. I'm being honest. It just happens that I'm being honest about you. :-) </quote>

No, Andy.  You're just wrong.  You're not in the kow as to sales numbers ot market info.  You see your favorite developer (id) say "Macs are cool" and make Q3A for it, so you assume it's a viable platform.

You're wrong.  The best pc games sell 1 million plus.  the best Mac games sell 100K.  Do the math.  

George Broussard, 3D Realms
#19 by "Andy"
2000-07-29 05:14:13
andy@planetcrap.com
<b>#18</b>, George Broussard:

So when you say that Mac gaming is dead, what you mean is that releasing games on the Mac is much less profitable than releasing them on the PC?

Well, so what? Why does that mean that Mac gaming is dead?

For as long as games are being released for the Mac, and people want to play those games, Mac gaming will be very much alive. If Id, Microsoft and others are releasing games on the Mac, I don't think anybody cares about their motives -- the games are there, people can play them, and Mac gaming is alive.

Stop thinking $$$ and start thinking GAMES!!
#20 by "None-1a"
2000-07-29 05:17:31
none1a@home.com http://www.geocities.com/none-1a
Personaly I think Mike's comments where geared more towards how apple's pushing their products now. remember back when the G3 and the iMac where new well apple pushed them as gaming platforms then (with a ton of BS about how many games where underdevelopment at the time). Well now what have we got, look a nice cube shaped box that seams to flot, o look 5 new iMac colors, o g' a mouse that you can click anywhere (nice they still haven't added a second damn button), O my good look at the new os with the big blue pill looking buttons and open documents sitting at the bottom (I know OSx has more going for it then Aqua but job's seams to be pushing the colors). Not once have I heard any thing about in development games or benchmarks that would make the 'cube' and new iMacs viable gaming systems.

O and george not to come after you or any thing but why is Microsoft looking to port many of their games if no money can be made on the mac side? Unlike Carmack they are not doing this because it's fun and a challange.

BTW can't wait to see Age of Kings with having to hold down that damn open apple key to right click the damn mouse.

<b>#14</b> "Steve Bauman" wrote...
<QUOTE>As an aside, Apple's new "buttonless" mouse has to be a gamer's worst
nightmare... if the hockey puck with the iMac and G3 wasn't bad enough.
</QUOTE>

I've talked with some die hard mac guys (and some that only tolrate them at work) and not one of them likes the idea of the whole mouse top acting as the button. About the best comment I got about it was this "the way I hold the mouse I'd be clicking the thing all the time"  <I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#21 by "George Broussard"
2000-07-29 05:17:47
georgeb@3drealms.com
Andy,

<quote>So when you say that Mac gaming is dead, what you mean is that releasing games on the Mac is much less profitable than releasing them on the PC? Well, so what? Why does that mean that Mac gaming is dead? </quote>

Yes.  Why?  Because with little to no return on investments, publishers will cease porting to the Mac.  And the platform dies.  Simple economics.

<quote>If Id, Microsoft and others are releasing games on the Mac, I don't think anybody cares about their motives -- the games are there, people can play them, and Mac gaming is alive. </quote>

That's all great and warm and fuzzy and all.  but 2 developers won't save a platform.

<quote>Stop thinking $$$ and start thinking GAMES!! </quote>

I can't.  Games are fun.  But at the core it's a business like any other.

Yeah, it sucks to be a Mac fan and want games.  I feel for them.  But it's not going to get any better.  Mac gaming will always be a VERY distant 2nd to pc gaming.  And only a handful of the best titles will get ported over.

George Broussard
#22 by "George Broussard"
2000-07-29 05:22:22
georgeb@3drealms.com
None,

<quote>O and george not to come after you or any thing but why is Microsoft looking to port many of their games if no money can be made on the mac side? Unlike Carmack they are not doing this because it's fun and a challange. </quote>

You hold up one developer, with more money than God, who is going to spend 500 million promoting X-Box as your example?  ;)

There are execeptions to every rule.

My point is that Mac gaming isn't real profitable (sure it is in a few cases) and that most developers won't develop for it.  That's a situation that won't change.  

You will still see games on the Mac, but in general they will be ports of VERY popular pc games.  You won't see B or C grade titles on the Mac, because it's not worht it.  So the Mac people have a really limited selection of games to choose from.

You really cannot logically argue that Mac gaming isn't dead/dying or that most developers won't ever port to it.

George Broussard, 3D Realms
#23 by "Andy"
2000-07-29 05:43:59
andy@planetcrap.com
<b>#21</b>, George Broussard:

As we wander into the dangerous area of factual debating, I'm bound to fall over in an embarrassing heap because I'm picking this stuff up as I go along, but after ten minutes at a Mac web site...

Current or future Mac releases:

  * All future Id games
  * All future Microsoft games
  * Diablo II
  * Warcract III
  * Star Trek Voyager: Elite Force
  * Star Trek: Deep Space Nine
  * Vampire: The Masquerade
  * Myst III
  * The Sims
  * Several others that look like kids games

Dead platform? ;-)
#24 by "George Broussard"
2000-07-29 06:03:11
georgeb@3drealms.com
Andy,

<quote>Current or future Mac releases:

  * All future Id games <quote>

All mega hit games.

<quote>  * All future Microsoft games </quote>

Stuff like Age of Empires and other hits.

<quote>  * Diablo II
  * Warcract III </quote>

Two, million selling games here.

<quote>  * Star Trek Voyager: Elite Force
  * Star Trek: Deep Space Nine </quote>

Elite Force and DSP both on engines that have been ported to Mac several times (Quake, Unreal etc.  Probably by the same port houses - Westlake?)

<quote>  * Vampire: The Masquerade </quote>

Sold 48,000 copies it's 1st month - hit game.

<quote>  * Myst III </quote>

Myst 2 sold 2,000,000 plus.

<quote>  * The Sims </quote>

According to PC Data, has sold 644,000 copies this year.  Big hit.

<quote>Dead platform? ;-) </quote>

No, it'll conintue (as I said) to get ports of hit games.  Meaning a good, but very selective list to choose from for Mac users.

Dead?  Maybe not.  But limited games that often appear far after a pc's release?  Sure.  How willing are you to dump your PC and go Mac?  i think that answers the question.

PC Data lists the top 400 games every month.  I wonder where those are for the Mac?

George Broussard, 3D Realms
#25 by "Steve Bauman"
2000-07-29 06:05:16
sbauman@adelphia.net http://homepages.together.net/~sbauman/
<b>#18</b> "George Broussard" wrote...
<QUOTE>
You're wrong. The best pc games sell 1 million plus. the best Mac games sell 100K. Do the math.
</QUOTE>
Are you saying that a company can't make a profit on a 100,000 selling Mac port of a PC game? In other words, it costs over, let's say, $2 million bucks to port and market a game? Hmm...

Seems that if the game was based on a cross-platform engine (ie Quake or Unreal, perhaps not to the level you're modding it, but still...) or with that intent from day one that it's a decent business, certainly bigger than Linux (I could be wrong, though I suspect Linux games aren't hitting the 100,000 mark yet).
Maybe this isn't enough for new ORIGINAL games, but it certainly seems viable as a secondary outlet for PC games.

---
"My life is a patio of fun."<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#26 by "Steve Bauman"
2000-07-29 06:08:23
sbauman@adelphia.net http://homepages.together.net/~sbauman/
<b>#24</b> "George Broussard" wrote...
<QUOTE>
Dead? Maybe not. But limited games that often appear far after a pc's release? Sure. How willing are you to dump your PC and go Mac? i think that answers the question.
</QUOTE>
Dang, you posted this after I wrote mine. That makes a lot more sense.

I don't think any serious PC gamer is willing to dump their PC for a Mac for any reason... unless they're into fashion statements--that G4 Cube is too cool looking. I'd love to have one on my desktop... with a P3 or Athlon, a GeForce 2 or Radeon (ooh, this seems like a nice card, folks), blah blah blah.

---
"My life is a patio of fun."<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#27 by "George Broussard"
2000-07-29 06:13:08
georgeb@3drealms.com
Steve,

<quote>Are you saying that a company can't make a profit on a 100,000 selling Mac port of a PC game? In other words, it costs over, let's say, $2 million bucks to port and market a game? Hmm... </quote>

First, most Mac games don't sell 100K.  Those are the Quake's, Doom's, Duke 3D's.  The rest are far less.  No, Mac ports don't cost 2 million, but a publisher ins't going to spend (say 500K or more) on a Mac port that will sell 40K units.  They would rather advance that 500K to a PC team for a PC title.

<quote>Seems that if the game was based on a cross-platform engine (ie Quake or Unreal, perhaps not to the level you're modding it, but still...)</quote>

Unreal isn't a cross platform engine.  You will see ports of Unreal games likely because the same Mac port house will keep doing them.

Q3A is because Carmack made it that way.  Most developers don't have the time or effort to design their engines that way.  And that isn't likely to change.

<quote> or with that intent from day one that it's a decent business, certainly bigger than...Maybe this isn't enough for new ORIGINAL games, but it certainly seems viable as a secondary outlet for PC games. </quote>

What's decided at startup isn't important.  A publisher will not publish a game on the Mac that only sold 40-80K on the PC.  Why would they?  If it's a failure on the PC, why port to Mac and have even less success?

Again, the proof is in the pudding.  Hundred and HUNDREDS of PC games and only a handful get ported.  Only the hits.  That's the business model and it isn't going to change.

Most publishers have a wait and see attitude.  If the PC game is a hit, they will port to Mac.  After.

George Broussard, 3D Realms
#28 by "Greg"
2000-07-29 06:22:00
In reading the interview, there was a brief question on MacOS X that alluded towards problems with game developers. I know from reading elsewhere that Apple has all but dropped their Sprocket interfaces. For anyone that doesn't know, AppleSprockets as a whole is roughly equivalent to DirectX. I'm not in the know totally (not being an Apple developer - yet, oddly enough) so I can't say if they have announced anything vaguely suited for games in OS X.

I figure that the Sprocket support is very analagous to DirectX. The big focus is on 3D, either OpenGL or Direct3D. I assume OS X has full OpenGL support, which is great, but the other two big APIs are sound and input. It is a disturbing trend if they get removed out of neglect. I though Apple was making a big push for game developers and this is a step backwards.

Greg
#29 by "Greg"
2000-07-29 06:23:35
If anyone wasn't aware of what interview I meant, it was the Mike Wilson interview on GameWeek.com. After reading Andy's article I see that Graeme from id is also mentioned. My bad.

Greg
#30 by "None-1a"
2000-07-29 06:39:07
none1a@home.com http://www.geocities.com/none-1a
<b>#28</b> "Greg" wrote...
<QUOTE>I figure that the Sprocket support is very analagous to DirectX. The big focus
is on 3D, either OpenGL or Direct3D. I assume OS X has full OpenGL support,
which is great, but the other two big APIs are sound and input. </QUOTE>

Yeap Apples going for a full open standered based system, that still leaves out a really good sound and input API. My guess would be that the old apple API's would transport over where the open API's are lacking (I have yet to see a good open source sound API that gives the same results at directSound, AC3d, or EAX).

Also with microsoft working on ports direct X becomes more of a possability. I still haven't heard and thing about a mac version.


<b>#18</b> "George Broussard" wrote...
<QUOTE>But that doesn't mean it's worth porting games like System Shock 2, Deus Ex, etc
etc over to Mac. </QUOTE>

Um gota brake that little bubble you have there, read this <a href="http://www.apple.com/games/articles/2000/07/ghost/">page</a> <I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#31 by "DooBall"
2000-07-29 06:53:20
dooball@planetshogo.com http://www.dooball.NET
i dont get it =\
#32 by "Desiato"
2000-07-29 06:56:42
desiato_hotblack@hotmail.com http://www.spew2.com/
It's all money...we know it, and we don't want to really admit that the "gee whiz" factor isn't what propels things into the forefront of popularity/possibility. (ie..porting games..)

The Mac will be a gaming platform when it is *equal* or *surpasses* the financial potential of the PC/Consoles.

I haven't seen any hard figures/sales units, but I think just from the install base that Mac has -- and the reasons their users order them (design, arts, etc.) may make the actual fanbase for gaming quite small.

Figures anyone?

It just doesn't seem at this juncture that they have achieved a critical mass to rush forward and challenge the PC/Consoles potential for making money.

That's about it.

And yes - in case anyone was wondering, if Apple started to kick PCs ass in that area, and I found that my beloved PC didn't have any real good titles out anymore -- I *would* switch.

Or if consoles take over..(XBox, etc..) same conclusion.

I'm in it for the gaming.

Desiato
#33 by "Greg"
2000-07-29 07:06:05
<B>#32</B> "Desiato" wrote...

<QUOTE>It just doesn't seem at this juncture that they have achieved a critical mass to rush forward and challenge the PC/Consoles potential for making money.</QUOTE>

It shouldn't matter. Developing simultaneously for a second platform should NOT double development costs. Apple's job should be to provide developers easier ways of doing that through standards and APIs. Up to OS 9, they've been doing that.  The perceived problem is that they are abandoning that progress in OS X. Of course, OS X is still about 6 months away from a full release, so it is anyone's guess as to how it will turn out.

Greg
#34 by "Apache"
2000-07-29 07:39:19
apache@voodooextreme.com http://www.voodooextreme.com
I can see where MikeW is coming from; Apple isn't $upporting its gaming division. It's not like people are rushing out to buy Macs for game purposes, they're mainly used either as little internet machines or for work.

Hell, Valve cancelled the Half-Life port which was about 80% finished, that tells you something, doesn't it?
#35 by "None-1a"
2000-07-29 07:39:54
none1a@home.com http://www.geocities.com/none-1a
<b>#33</b> "Greg" wrote...
<QUOTE>It shouldn't matter. Developing simultaneously for a second platform should NOT
double development costs. Apple's job should be to provide developers easier
ways of doing that through standards and APIs. Up to OS 9, they've been doing
that. </QUOTE>

Greg I would be under the impression that moveing from Sprockets to OpenGL would help portability not hinder it. Sprockets was an Apple API and only used on the mac platform, OpenGL is used on just about every platform out there, I don't get how abandoning the apple API in favor of one used on the PC woud harm portablity in some why, I'd be greatful if you could explane how this would happen.

<b>#32</b> "Desiato" wrote...
<QUOTE>I haven't seen any hard figures/sales units, but I think just from the install
base that Mac has -- and the reasons their users order them (design, arts, etc.)
may make the actual fanbase for gaming quite small.

</QUOTE>

Tryed that earlyer, acctauly I was trying to find any info that would basicly say the mac was not a dieing platform by showing an increase in game sales over the last few years. My problem is that I can't find a single place willing to give that infomation out for free (I'm not willing to pay to prove one little point here). I have been hearing that the mac is gaining ground in the install base (again I can't back that up with numbers for the same reasons). I can tell you thing those design and arts people do injoy gaming just as much as you do, any computer realted class I took back in high school would result in no more then two PC gamers in that class, every mac orianted design corse I've taken had the same number. I have a friend currently working at a locak service shop (turning out film for printing, plates, imporsition work, etc), the shop is mac heavy since they tend to work much better on the highend image setters they use. You know what most of the guys he works with have PC at home just for gaming. <I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#36 by "Milamber"
2000-07-29 09:46:13
milamber@amoeba.com.au http://www.wagz.net
There's all this talk about ports, sales etc, but I think at the core of it you have to look at developers <b>developing intially</b> for mac. How many games do you see that are released for Mac initally, and then get ported across to PC.

In recent years, I can't think of any that fit this bill, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. To me that shows that it's a platform that is certainly struggling, although I'd be reluctant to classify it dead just yet.

-M
#37 by "podfish"
2000-07-29 12:36:50
llama@verbalchilli.com http://www.verbalchilli.com
Andy gibbered: "Your opinion on the modern PC games industry and the trends within it has no great credibility or importance, because you're not currently operating within that industry."

Andy, sweetie, you say he <i>had</i> credibility. I would argue he still does. Either way, his opinion is still more valid than that of your average ex-PCF hack, eh? Play nicely :)

Outta interest, which "Andy" were you at PCF? I used to read more of that mag than was healthy for me.
#38 by "Darkseid-[D!]"
2000-07-29 14:07:20
darkseid-d@planetcrap.com http://www.captured.com/boomstick
*sighs*

Andy, get yer head OUT of yer ass.

gaming on the mac, is only marginally more popular/succesful than on Linux, and will continue to be so.

id ported quake3, guess what, of all the macs out there, very very few can actually run it at a playable level.  We played with the test version on a g3 400, 128mbs and one of the |then new| ati cards.  12fps... This, from a $2000 box.

I work with a mac head in, a good friend of mine, and consistently wind him up (gosh zealotry is such an easy way to wind someone up), about various things. He starts boasting about how apple was first to do this x years ago .. then his g3 crashes or fritzes out, ooh what was that about superior stability.  Oh yeah the american military classes the g3 as a supercomputer and thus a weapon, bullfuckingshit. Capable of 1 Gigaflops, woohoo, so is my Geforce DDR in that same calculation test.

Why wont mac gaming go anywhere ?

well, last time I went into Game .. there werent any Linux only or Mac only games knocking around ....


cant sell something that doesnt exsist.


Ds<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#39 by "Jafd"
2000-07-29 16:21:08
jafd@zombieworld.com http://jafd.isfuckingbrilliant.com
Sure there's no doubt that Mac gaming is a tiny speck on a microscopic dot compared to consoles and Wintel... that doesn't make it "dead," or even, "dying."

As long as there are folks using Macintoshes, some of those folks will want to play games, and other folks will produce them.

I remember ten years ago, there were a few Mac-only games around, that were quite good (I worked at an Egghead, so I got to play everything); now that the gap between Wintel and everything else has gotten so wide, well, duh, no kidding hardly anyone is making Mac-only games. So what?

Someone somewhere up above (no cSpy on the computer I'm on ): said that only the really big hits on the PC will ever get ported to the Mac, and that the majority of the hundreds of games released on the PC each year will never make it to the Mac.

Uhm... S.F.W.? It is virtually certain that anyone who bought a Mac either A) doesn't give two shakes about games, B) wouldn't mind playing a decently fun game once in a while, or C) is a freaking games junkie, and so probably has a PC and six consoles anyway. (Probably most of the folks who buy that high-priced Apple(tm) plastic have enough cash to have more than one system; I've never known anyone who owned only a Mac who wasn't a student anyway, and students ought to be firmly routed into category B.)

"The death of Mac gaming" is more or less a remarkably insipid subject. You can talk about "the death of the Mac platform" all day; that's a lot more likely than every single Mac developer deciding to never write another game again. As long as the computers are in use, there will be games. For fuck's sake, people are still porting games to the Amiga!

It may, indeed, be the case that what is dying or dead is the ability to make wads of cash off of Mac games. <b><i>Great.</i></b> All the folks who see making cash as the primary attraction to Mac game development will inevitably drift away, and since these are generally the types of folks responsible for creating crap games, it would seem to me that an exodus would do more to make Mac gaming healthier.

Those who remain will develop and publish games for the Mac because they really want to... and of course, because there IS money to be made. Just, not that much. Boo hoo.

Additionally, when a Mac owner goes to the software store, they're not going to have a wide selection to choose from; but those selections are going to almost all be proven successful and fun games that were ported. So while everybody on the PC side of the fence is thinking, "wow there aren't hardly any games to play for a Mac," all the Mac users are going, "Wow! All the games out for the Mac are really good!"

So you've got Mike saying how horrible Apple's marketing is, and you've got Graeme saying how absolutely jamming the Mac developers are.

Wow. Now <b>there's</b> a revelation from on high, eh? The only thing that has kept Apple from killing themselves off by repeatedly shooting themselves in the foot, is the developers who have made the Mac hardware and software into what it is. Which is, really, pretty damn good; although Wintel is arguably superior overall (and aboslutely cheaper), the niche that Macs excel in is certainly not insignificant.

It doesn't matter at all that the Mac game market is miniature compared to Wintel. Mac games will still thrive as long as the platform thrives. The question is, what is your definition of 'thriving?'
#40 by "Jafd"
2000-07-29 16:25:00
jafd@zombieworld.com http://jafd.isfuckingbrilliant.com
Now, having said all that... those ghits at Apple management have all gotta be complete dumbasses. A buttonless mouse??? Whose kid are you? Crikey!
#41 by "Sgt Hulka"
2000-07-29 17:41:52
Sgt_Hulka@Hulka.com http://www.hulka.com
<b>#40</b> "Jafd" wrote...
<QUOTE>A buttonless mouse??? Whose kid are you? Crikey! </QUOTE>

I want a mouse that doesn't make a click sound.  That way when I sit in class, my instructor won't hear my cruising the web.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#42 by "Dethstryk"
2000-07-29 17:52:25
dethstryk@damagegaming.com http://www.damagegaming.com/
<b>Sgt Hulka wrote in post #41:</b>
<quote>I want a mouse that doesn't make a click sound. That way when I sit in class, my instructor won't hear my cruising the web.</quote>
Yes, but as most educational facilities go, you'll be way out of any classes before they upgrade their technology. ;)


--
Dethstryk
Damage Gaming
#43 by "Steve Bauman"
2000-07-29 18:55:02
sbauman@adelphia.net http://homepages.together.net/~sbauman/
<b>#36</b> "Milamber" wrote...
<QUOTE>
There's all this talk about ports, sales etc, but I think at the core of it you have to look at developers <B>developing intially</B> for mac. How many games do you see that are released for Mac initally, and then get ported across to PC.
</QUOTE>
Very few, but simultaneous (as in Bungie and others) or near-simultaneous (Diablo II shipped last week) is probably a good thing for the platform.

---
"My life is a patio of fun."<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#44 by "Darkseid-[D!]"
2000-07-29 18:57:06
darkseid-d@planetcrap.com http://www.captured.com/boomstick
*puts on Sepultura Ratamahatta*


for some reason Portuguese shouting makes great accompanyment to reading Derek Smarts posts :)



BOOOM BOOOM RATAMAHATTA .. ELLO DOWN TOWN!

Ds<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#45 by "wayfinder"
2000-07-29 18:59:15
http://www.azure-music.com
Also, please note that to emulate a right button click, you need to hold down the control key, not the apple key. thank you. :D
#46 by "Whisp"
2000-07-29 19:00:18
whisp_@hotmail.com
<b>#45</b> "wayfinder" wrote...
<QUOTE>
Also, please note that to emulate a right button click, you need to hold down
the control key, not the apple key. thank you. :D </QUOTE>
Or you could just buy a real mouse.

-Whisp
#47 by "Darkseid-[D!]"
2000-07-29 19:03:36
darkseid-d@planetcrap.com http://www.captured.com/boomstick
Microsoft introduces the Intellimouse, with opti eye and 4 buttons

Apple, introduces the stupidamouse, with no buttons.




;)



DS<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#48 by "flamethrower"
2000-07-29 19:12:55
flamey_at_evil@hotmail.com http://flamethrower.evilavatar.com
You bitches should be talking about a REAL fucking computer abandoned by Bastard Developers and sold down the river of dispair by the Incompetent Business Managers.

The Amiga, man, was it.
<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#49 by "Darkseid-[D!]"
2000-07-29 19:20:29
darkseid-d@planetcrap.com http://www.captured.com/boomstick
The Amiga

oh hell yeah.




bring back workbench !



that and the games that came out on it, still superior in many ways to the multi thousand quid/dollar pcs today.


mmmmm Amiga Sensible Soccer, mmm Amiga Speedball 2 - BrutalDeluxe.


Ds<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#50 by "Ambushbug"
2000-07-29 21:16:39
ambushbug@portalofevil.com
I spent SO many hours/days/weeks playing Armourgeddon on my Amiga 500 it's not even funny.

*sigh*

-AB
C O M M E N T S
Home » Topic: GoD Bites The Devine Apple

|«« - Previous Page - Next Page - »»|
P O S T   A   C O M M E N T

You need to be logged in to post a comment here. If you don't have an account yet, you can create one here. Registration is free.
C R A P T A G S
Simple formatting: [b]bold[/b], [i]italic[/i], [u]underline[/u]
Web Links: [url=www.mans.de]Cool Site[/url], [url]www.mans.de[/url]
Email Links: [email=some@email.com]Email me[/email], [email]some@email.com[/email]
Simple formatting: Quoted text: [quote]Yadda yadda[/quote]
Front Page (ATOM) • Submission Bin (1) • ArchivesUsersLoginCreate Account
You are currently not logged in.
There are currently 0 people browsing this site. [Details]