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T O P I C
Max Hacks and Game Packs
July 28th 2000, 23:54 CEST by andy

Discreet, a division of Autodesk, has announced that a cut-down version of 3d Studio Max will be released free of charge. The move is being made with amateur game developers in mind.



The free version will be called 3d Studio gMAX and will be based on the new version of the full product. The full Max package, which is notorious for being pirated, usually retails for around $3,500.

The PC Format web site quotes a Discreet representative as saying that gMAX will be available for free download, and will also be open source. However, the official press release explains that extensions to the package -- known as Game Packs -- can only be released by developers who have been licensed by Discreet.

The press release focuses on the use of gMAX as a level editing tool, rather than model editing which has been Max's more common use: "Discreet is announcing its new product initiative today for the benefit of game developers who plan to release custom level editing tools with game titles next year."

It continues: "This new product will offer a targeted selection of standard 3d Studio Max features for level layout, 3D polygon modeling, state-of-the-art real time texturing and lighting, and basic animation."

Development versions of gMAX will be released later this year, after the next major release of the full Max package. After the first official Game Packs have been released, gMAX will be made available to consumers.

C O M M E N T S
Home » Topic: Max Hacks and Game Packs

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#1 by "Warren Marshall"
2000-07-28 23:58:56
warren@epicgames.com http://www.epicgames.com
[blocking the moronathon]
#2 by "Seven Tacos"
2000-07-29 00:04:09
kurto@asgaard.usu.edu
[1] Warren Marshall -
<quote>[blocking the moronathon]</quote>

Nope, the only hope for that is making sure that Derek's builds always crap out early so he doesn't have time to let his Tolstoy personality come to the fore and work on his next novel.

This sounds like a pretty good move on their part. At least they can sell manuals which might garner them some cash from a group that typically would not be giving them any money.
#3 by "Paul"
2000-07-29 00:05:44
paul@paulbullman.com http://www.paulbullman.com
I think this is a wonderful idea. Any software free is a pleasant download.;-)

- Paul
#4 by "Andrew Stine"
2000-07-29 00:09:34
linguica@doomworld.com http://www.doomworld.com
If it's free, it' a good idea, no matter what the hell it is.
#5 by "Whisp"
2000-07-29 00:12:29
whisp_@hotmail.com
From what I understand though, it won't be much good if the developers don't support it.  You'll have a high quality free tool, that doesn't produce any formats useful to anyone.  Of course, if it really is open source, I'm sure we'll see tools for the latest games from all the frustrated programmers out there.  I agree though, smart idea on their part.  Selling the full documentation to go with it would be good too.  I know a lot of the people who do get it on the fly do wish they could actually purchase, but either can't afford it, or can't justify that kind of money for a hobby they might decide to drop.

-Whisp
#6 by "Nemesis"
2000-07-29 00:18:29
Nemesis@planethalflife.com
Its going to help a lot of mod makers out, thats for sure. Just a shame theres no Character Studio which a lot games seem to use heavily.

/me wonders if we can convince Alias|Wavefront to release some free Maya :)

Nemesis ( Former Lurker )
<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#7 by "Desiato"
2000-07-29 00:29:22
desiato_hotblack@hotmail.com http://www.spew2.com/
Dammit nemesis ;) You beat me to it.

It's true -- no character studio, and you're fucked as a animator. Yes -- you can stumble through trying to simulate IK motion but its freaking hard as hell without Char. Studio helping you out...

I think you can implement some basic "bones" in 3DS, but it is a far cry from what Physique and Char. Studio offer.

Who knows -- maybe they'll offer stripped-down versions of plugins that are part of the download.

Desiato
#8 by "Nemesis"
2000-07-29 00:39:40
Nemesis@planethalflife.com
Heh my first post on the boards and i'm making friends already.

Basically the way that I see it with games such as half-life and quake 3 (no experience of others yet) unless you have Character Studio which is used for all the animations then you are severly screwed.

Definetly wouldn't like to work without IK....urgh..

<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#9 by "Whisp"
2000-07-29 00:53:15
whisp_@hotmail.com
Actually the newest versions of 3dsmax have quite decent bones and IK.  It's perfectly possible to do Q3 animations with nothing but the basic package.  I'm not sure about Half-Life though.  In fact, Character Studio is pretty worthless for animating non-bipeds.  Of course, from what I understand it makes animating humanoids at lot easier, which is the player type that most games of this type use.

-Whisp
#10 by "BloodKnight"
2000-07-29 00:55:06
bloodknight@somethingawful.com
I don't see any real problem with this, sure it doesn't have nothing compared to the real deal, but what about those that are really trying to learn 3D Studio.  I taken a course for 3 weeks last year on 3D Studio, I never got the chance to get a registered one.  I can't wait till this is released, as long as it has extrude (for those who used 3D Studio), I am happy :)

<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#11 by "RzE"
2000-07-29 01:10:32
rze@counter-strike.net http://csnation.counter-strike.net
It looks like an attempt to cut down on warez (since <b>no</b> mod author can afford a $3,500 program), but it will most likely fail since it's not aimed towards modellers as much as it should be.
#12 by "Chris Johnson"
2000-07-29 01:51:17
Interesting to be sure, but definitely not done out of the goodness of Discreet's heart, I'm sure.

Basically, the newest versions of other packages are touting their abilities to do this, and Discreet seems to be playing catch-up.  Both the newest versions of Maya (3.0) and Softimage (XSI) have games-specific tools (Softimage for one has had them for at least a year and a half) and an SDK specifically introduced to support these functions.  I didn't notice any mention of a specific SDK from gMAX, but I might have missed it since I only skimmed the article.  If it doesn't include an SDK for this, for the hobbyist developer/level editor, this is going to be all but worthless (the only thing I can think of that might be able to use it as is would be Unreal or Worldcraft, by importing brushes made in this, but you're stil having to use their editors, making the level editing brouhaha of this package simply hype).  Also, if the SDK is only available as a Pack (which this kinda sounds like), and that only available for purchase by a "licensed" developer, then what good is that to a hobbyist to download it.  If anything, it will more than likely maintain the pirating, if not increase it.  (After all, I doubt they're going to give away the licenses, though who knows, I could be wrong.  It's happened once before. ;)

Also, I wouldn't get anyones hopes up for using this as an animation tool, even the basic bones and IK that usually come standard in MAX.  From what I can tell they're trying to make this a level editing tool first and foremost, not an all 'round development package.  ESPECIALLY not in the free version. (Kinetix/discreet is notorious for crippling their student versions of MAX in the past, to the point of renders only being able to be done at 640x480, external plug-in usage severely limited or DOA, that sort of thing)  I really doubt they're going to throw all of the bells and whistles into a free download for all to use on their mods and such.

Hopefully on some of this I'm wrong, and if I am, I'll definitely admit to it, but it sounds more like a publicity "let's get our name out there too" thing rather than a real bonus to most persons.  *shrug*

---CJ

<I> My statements are not a reflection of that of my employer, family, pets, friends, enemies, or species.  So there.  Nyah.  </I>
#13 by "Frijoles"
2000-07-29 01:55:39
<quote>[11] Rze says:

It looks like an attempt to cut down on warez (since no mod author can afford a $3,500 program), but it will most likely fail since it's not aimed towards modellers as much as it should be.
</quote>

This also has the potential to backfire. People will download this program, try it out, and then think, "This is pretty cool, I wonder if I can find the full version on Gnutella."  And poof, they have it.

I personally think this is wonderful because I can't afford buying Max for $3500 but I still think it's a great program. I just hope it isn't 'cut down' too much.

Frijoles
#14 by "Chris Johnson"
2000-07-29 01:56:11
Whisp (9):

Character Studio is relatively good for doing non-bieds actually, you just have to make you're own skeleton, instead of using the ready-made biped functions in CS.  And biped has its own things that tend to piss animators off from time to time (ESPECIALLY the fact that the various parts of the biped come in at really odd rotations by default, and can't be changed without destroying the skeleton, so it's a bear to program for if you want an open-ended skeletal system, as I understand it).  

Most that I know that use CS will bypass biped (heh) unless it's absolutely necessary to use because of prior limitations(naming conventions that sort of thing).  But then again, most of them that I know of would rather bypass CS and MAX altogether... *Shrug*
#15 by "Nemesis"
2000-07-29 02:24:41
Nemesis@planethalflife.com
I think that they have finally seen the fact that Max is no longer in the position that it used to be and this scares them somewhat.

Both Maya and Soft are exceptional tools even the base models with them come complete with game developing in mind alongside the more powerful utilities such as PaintFX for Maya ( I still can't get enough of that utility).

With Maya being ported to MacOs X and Linux and with the reasonable prices and excellent student support...(definetly no rendering res. limitations) I think Max could be seeing it's day as one of the top dogs of modeling.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#16 by "Baytor"
2000-07-29 04:49:44
baytor@yahoo.com http://www.geocities.com/baytor
<b>#1</b> "Warren Marshall" wrote...
<QUOTE>

[blocking the moronathon] </QUOTE>

Hey, I resemble that remark :

I... AM BAYTOR!!!!<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#17 by "Desiato"
2000-07-29 06:44:36
desiato_hotblack@hotmail.com http://www.spew2.com/
I totally forgot, but MAXScript probably won't be in this stripped-down version. (I'm guessing, since it is so easily extensible.) That would suck too - I mean, how much easier it is to use a input and a formula to determine the motion of an object being controlled by a Euler XYZ controller than having to do it by hand.

If that was greek to you -- I'm sorry, but its just a way of linking a mathematical formula to an object and controlling that object without the need to hand-position "key" frames or any of that stuff.

Desiato
#18 by "podfish"
2000-07-29 12:19:13
llama@verbalchilli.com http://www.verbalchilli.com
Well, however cut down this version is it certainly beats paying for it! Strange that you guys say it has limited tools for modellers though; I would have though it was by far its greater application, rather than mapping, for which the majority of prominent games have their own editors.

It definitely beats the ancient student version I picked up. That crashed every time I tried to tween :(
#19 by "podfish"
2000-07-29 12:22:07
llama@verbalchilli.com http://www.verbalchilli.com
Just out of interest - I always found the only part of modelling I couldn't handle was mapping it out so I could skin it... Are there any plugins/tools that make this process easier?
#20 by "Sgt Hulka"
2000-07-29 12:38:18
Sgt_Hulka@Hulka.com http://www.hulka.com
<b>#8</b> "Nemesis" wrote...
<QUOTE>Basically the way that I see it with games such as half-life and quake 3 (no experience of others yet) unless you have Character Studio which is used for all the animations then you are severly screwed. </QUOTE>

Real animators use Notepad!


But in all seriousnesses, this is a great move!  Although it won't allow character animation, it does give newbies a nice tool to lern.  (Yes, I misspelled it on purpose.  Why? I have no freaking idea.  I'm jamming to Electric Eye by Judas Priest and it make me act wacky for some odd reason, perhaps it's the DEVIL influencing me.)

(Imagine ramming/thrusting G=Chord here)
I'm made of metal, my circuits gleam
I am perpetual, I keep the country clean.

I'm electing electric spy, I'm protecting electric eye...

(Guitar solo)

I'm up too early, or to late, depends on how you look at it. With that said, I think we can all agree that Rosie O'Donnell should ALWAYS do her own stunts.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#21 by "G-Man"
2000-07-29 13:08:14
jonmars@shiftlock.org http://www.shiftlock.org
Sounds like LevelEditorSpy. A unified game editor is a great idea, though most likely untenable at the current state. Considering that we are moving towards in-game editors (i.e no compile time) and current editors are centered around simply exporting vertices. What was the name of that unified save game SDK that was being shopped around a few years back but failed?

 - [g.man]<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#22 by "Sgt Hulka"
2000-07-29 14:09:57
Sgt_Hulka@Hulka.com http://www.hulka.com
<b>#OT</b> "Daily Gaydar" wrote...
http://www.dailyradar.com/previews/game_preview_848.html
<QUOTE>
From the NO On Live Forever / Lithtech 2.5 article:
"There are also plenty of humorous touches, like henchmen complaining about their wages or all the crates lying around."
</QUOTE>


Hrmm.. Perhaps Old Man Murray influences game development more than we originally thought!<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#23 by "Darkseid-[D!]"
2000-07-29 14:10:33
darkseid-d@planetcrap.com http://www.captured.com/boomstick
Baytor


damnit son, cease and desist using my one liners before I set Seth Kriegs lawyers on you !



Q, Whats black and tan and looks good on a lawyer,


A, A rabid doberman.




Ds<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#24 by "Sgt Hulka"
2000-07-29 14:14:50
Sgt_Hulka@Hulka.com http://www.hulka.com
<b>#23</b> "Darkseid-[D!]" wrote...
<QUOTE>Q, Whats black and tan and looks good on a lawyer,
A, A rabid doberman.
</QUOTE>

What's black and white and can't get through revolving doors?  
A nun with a spear through her head.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#25 by "Darkseid-[D!]"
2000-07-29 14:18:01
darkseid-d@planetcrap.com http://www.captured.com/boomstick
Q: What do you call 5000 lawyers trapped on a boat sinking in the middle of the atlantic ocean ?

A: A good start.




Ds<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#26 by "Jafd"
2000-07-29 15:34:43
jafd@zombieworld.com http://jafd.isfuckingbrilliant.com
A lawyer, a sailor, a stripper, and the Pope walk into a bar. The bartender looks them over and says, "What is this, some kind of a joke?"
#27 by "Andy"
2000-07-29 16:05:44
andy@planetcrap.com
Q: What's green, red and spins around?
A: Kermit the frog in a blender.

Q: What's pink and wet?
A: A baby in a plastic bag.

Q: What's black and dry?
A: Same baby a month later.
#28 by "Sgt Hulka"
2000-07-29 16:10:08
Sgt_Hulka@Hulka.com http://www.hulka.com
Jafd #26

BOO HISS!!!


A dog limps into a bar, he says I'm looking for the guy who shot my pa.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#29 by "Sgt Hulka"
2000-07-29 16:13:41
Sgt_Hulka@Hulka.com http://www.hulka.com
Go here
http://www.nralive.com/index2.cfm

Click Recent News, then Must see

Then watch a little speech by
Heston At Brandeis:
"Question Authority... Think For Yourself"

<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#30 by "flamethrower"
2000-07-29 19:12:58
flamey_at_evil@hotmail.com http://flamethrower.evilavatar.com
<b>#1</b> "Warren Marshall" wrote...
<QUOTE>

[blocking the moronathon] </QUOTE>

Who is the moron? The moron who posts first or the moron who posts second talking about the moron posts first?

If Albert Einstein were he today and got a chance to post-first he'd say "First Post plus my best friend has syphillis."
<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#31 by "Baytor"
2000-07-29 22:21:06
baytor@yahoo.com http://www.geocities.com/baytor
<b>#23</b> "Darkseid-[D!]" wrote...
<QUOTE>damnit son, cease and desist using my one liners before I set Seth Kriegs
lawyers on you !

</QUOTE>

Dood, that's pure Groucho.

Now, quit it before I sue you for definition of character.

I... AM BAYTOR!!!!<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#32 by "Darkseid-[D!]"
2000-07-29 23:09:25
darkseid-d@planetcrap.com http://www.captured.com/boomstick
Sue me ?

you couldnt sooty or sweep me !



Ds<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#33 by "Chris Johnson"
2000-07-30 00:12:24
Two lawyers are in  a bar when an absolutely beautiful, fully stacked beauty comes into the bar.

As she walks by, the first lawyers says, "God, I'd love to fuck her."

The second one replies, "Really?  Out of what?"

---

On an unrelated note, this is where the conversation is basically straight in the toilet, isn't it?
#34 by "Andy"
2000-07-30 00:22:53
andy@planetcrap.com
<b>#33</b>, Chris Johnson:
<QUOTE>
On an unrelated note, this is where the conversation is basically straight in the toilet, isn't it?
</QUOTE>
This thread serves as a good indicator of why I don't post many positive topics. :-)
#35 by "bagofmice"
2000-08-01 00:48:08
rcastle@microsoft.com
What if there was a flame war and one liners showed up?
#36 by "Derek Smart"
2000-08-01 01:54:54
dsmart@3000ad.com http://www.3000ad.com
IMHO, it's an utterly useless, pointless and time wasting excercise. MAX is already the most pirated graphics program on the planet, I don't see how gMAX is going to curb anything. It'll just become, if it ever happens, the second most pirated graphics program on the planet.

For one thing, only an amateur would buy it. The pros* already either (a) have a legit version of MAX 3.1 or (b) have a pirated version.

The amateurs/pros already have their amateurish/pro tools they're happy with. Whether its QR, WC or the like.

Since developers have to support it, guess how long <i>thats</i> gonna take to catch on. Most games are geared toward their own content. And more often than not, the developers have their own tools. Like they want to learn another.

Apart from that, anyone who has used Max or any iteration thereof, knows that its not for the feint at heart. I don't see how gMAX is going to make it any different. They <i>tried</i> to pull the same stunt with AutoCAD and came up with some crippled derivative - which, as far as I know, really didn't catch on.

If Discreet wanted to support the game development industry, gMAX is not the answer. Release the damn specs for the .MAX file format so we don't have to screw around with stupid plugins for even the slightest thing. They've been saying they'd release it, going back to the first version. They're up to Max 3.1 now. Nothing yet.

* <i>In case anyone was wondering, I have a legit version, having upgraded from 3DS, way back when.</i>
<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#37 by "Derek Smart"
2000-08-01 01:58:19
dsmart@3000ad.com http://www.3000ad.com
<b>#13</b> "Frijoles" wrote...
<QUOTE>This also has the potential to backfire. People will download this program, try it out, and then think, "This is pretty cool, I wonder if I can find the full
version on Gnutella." And poof, they have it. </quote>

Yep

<quote>
I personally think this is
wonderful because I can't afford buying Max for $3500 but I still think it's a
great program. I just hope it isn't 'cut down' too much.
</QUOTE>

It will be crippled, no doubt. But, unless you've never used MAX, it won't make a difference...until the day you find out that it doesn't support something you <i>really</i> need and have no choice but to get the full MAX, now that you are used to gMAX. And of course, thats how they get you.

<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#38 by "Andy"
2000-08-01 03:40:46
andy@planetcrap.com
<b>#36</b>, Derek Smart:
<QUOTE>
IMHO, it's an utterly useless, pointless and time wasting excercise. MAX is already the most pirated graphics program on the planet, I don't see how gMAX is going to curb anything. It'll just become, if it ever happens, the second most pirated graphics program on the planet.

For one thing, only an amateur would buy it. The pros* already either (a) have a legit version of MAX 3.1 or (b) have a pirated version.
</QUOTE>
Derek, gMax is being released for free. Nobody has to buy it, nobody has to pirate it. They just have to download it and use it, which is what I'll be doing, and why I'm grateful to Discreet for making this decision.
#39 by "None-1a"
2000-08-01 04:09:45
none1a@home.com http://www.geocities.com/none-1a/
<b>#38</b> "Andy" wrote...
<QUOTE>Derek, gMax is being released for free. Nobody has to buy it, nobody has to
pirate it. They just have to download it and use it, which is what I'll be
doing, and why I'm grateful to Discreet for making this decision. </QUOTE>

Andy I think Derek's main point was that a lot of people are going to hit a brick wall when using gMax, and end up warezing it rather then paying for the full version (take a look back over the first few post for the animation releated stuff that would be the brick wall when using it for games).

Derek if I've missed your point or something please fell free to bit my head off for it, should add at least something interesting to this thread.

--
None-1a, Any one bitching about spelling just can't argue with what I said.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#40 by "Derek Smart"
2000-08-01 04:13:02
dsmart@3000ad.com http://www.3000ad.com
<b>#38</b> "Andy" wrote...
<QUOTE>Derek, gMax is being released for free. Nobody has to buy it, nobody has to
pirate it. They just have to download it and use it, which is what I'll be
doing, and why I'm grateful to Discreet for making this decision.
</QUOTE>

Right<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#41 by "Derek Smart"
2000-08-01 04:16:07
dsmart@3000ad.com http://www.3000ad.com
<b>#39</b> "None-1a" wrote...
<QUOTE>Derek if I've missed your point or something please fell free to bit my head off for it, should add at least something interesting to this thread.
</QUOTE>

Nope, you hit it right on the head. I'm too worn out today, to argue about it, so I gave Andy a one-liner. I've stated my opinion, lets see how it plays out.

People need to understand something: <i>nothing</i> is free and <b>most</b> especially when it has anything to do with those Autodesk/Kinetix/Discreet suits.
The catch is there, hidden in plain sight, people just can't decipher it yet.

Just wait, it'll hit soon enough I think.



<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#42 by "Andy"
2000-08-01 04:26:47
andy@planetcrap.com
<b>#40</b>, Derek Smart:

Enlighten me -- how/why would someone pirate free software?
#43 by "Derek Smart"
2000-08-01 04:28:58
dsmart@3000ad.com http://www.3000ad.com
<b>#21</b> "G-Man" wrote...
<QUOTE>What was the name of that unified save game SDK that was being shopped around a few years back but failed?
</QUOTE>

Yeah, I know the one you're talking about, but the name eludes me too.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#44 by "RahvinTaka"
2000-08-01 07:54:54
donaldp@mad.scientist.com
<b>#42</b> "Andy" wrote...
<QUOTE>

<B>#40</B>, Derek Smart:

Enlighten me -- how/why would someone pirate free software?
</QUOTE>

he hasn't said that - he said that they would end up pirating full version<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#45 by "RahvinTaka"
2000-08-01 07:57:54
donaldp@mad.scientist.com
I think gMax is not aimed at geberal modeling as such but as a replacement for things like qoole/qer/unrealed/quark/etc. Developers are supposed to be able to quickly change source code and add stuff in that would drastically decrease time creating tools. Could be wrong but I think thats there aim - which is why some of the more complex dodads are being cut.<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#46 by "Andy"
2000-08-01 16:44:30
andy@planetcrap.com
<b>#44</b>, RahvinTaka:
<QUOTE>
he hasn't said that - he said that they would end up pirating full version
</QUOTE>
Uhm, no, he said this, bold added by me:

<b>#36</b>, Derek Smart:
<QUOTE>
IMHO, it's an utterly useless, pointless and time wasting excercise. MAX is already the most pirated graphics program on the planet, <b>I don't see how gMAX is going to curb anything. It'll just become, if it ever happens, the second most pirated graphics program on the planet.</b>
</QUOTE>
#47 by "RahvinTaka"
2000-08-01 16:49:49
donaldp@mad.scientist.com
<b>#46</b> "Andy" wrote...
<QUOTE>

<B>#44</B>, RahvinTaka:

<quote>
he hasn't said that - he said that they would end up pirating full version
</quote>
Uhm, no, he said this, bold added by me:

<B>#36</B>, Derek Smart:

<quote>
IMHO, it's an utterly useless, pointless and time wasting excercise. MAX is already the most pirated graphics program on the planet, <B>I don't see how gMAX is going to curb anything. It'll just become, if it ever happens, the second most pirated graphics program on the planet.</B>
</quote>

</QUOTE>

oops. Stand corrected :P<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#48 by "Derek Smart"
2000-08-01 20:21:52
dsmart@3000ad.com http://www.3000ad.com
<b>#46</b> "Andy" wrote...

This: (<i>bold excerpt</i>)

<quote>
It will be crippled, no doubt. But, unless you've never used MAX, it won't make a difference...<b>until the day you find out that it doesn't support something you really need and have no choice but to get the full MAX</b>, now that you are used to gMAX. And of course, thats how they get you. </quote>

will invariably lead to this: (<i>bold excerpt</i>)

<quote>
IMHO, it's an utterly useless, pointless and time wasting excercise. MAX is already the most pirated graphics program on the planet, I don't see how gMAX is going to curb anything. <b>It'll just become, if it ever happens, the second most pirated graphics program on the planet</b>. </quote>

I know, it was hard to make the connection due to the manner in which I composed the post. But, there you have it.

<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
#49 by "Andy"
2000-08-01 20:38:37
andy@planetcrap.com
Derek,

Okay, cool. I just didn't like you saying I'd misunderstood you, when it was in fact you who had made the mistake.

No harm done. Peace returns to the galaxy. ;-)
#50 by "Craig"
2000-08-16 06:20:38
craigl@globalnet.co.uk http://www.planetcrap.com/crapspy/
cs test...<I><B></B></I><I></I><I></I>
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